[Tom Fowler] Individual's data is owned by the individual. Opening that data up to a third party must, you know, must by by law remain completely in the control of the individual. Right. So the question then is, why would I, as a consumer, open up, you know, private, biometric data or physiological data to a third party? I need to understand the value that I will receive if I open up my data to them. People have to have a certain level of trust, say, that they're what needs to be kept private will be private. Mhmm. Right? You know, it'll just between be be between me and my doctor, between my lawyer, or between me Mhmm. And my fitness provider. Right. And I trust and I and I have a high level of trust that around the sanctity of of that relationship. And I have a high level belief that I'm getting tremendous, tremendous value, in exchange for my willingness to open up what otherwise, you know, I might keep to myself. [Kamal Datta] Hey, listeners. In this next episode of Tech in 26th into part, I'm really excited to bring Tom Fowler, former president of Polar North America. He's also advising board member of quite a few health and wellness companies in North America and across different other countries as well. Our discussion focused on 3 key areas. 1st, to learn about his experience turning around polar in North America, especially, and deep dive into the smartwatch industry. What makes smartwatch smart? We focused on that. Part 2 of our conversation focused on in the mix of all the technology that available in today for an athletes or an amateur athletes, how one should navigate to which technology to adopt versus to ignore. It's a very fascinating discussion I had based on Tom's incredible experience understanding technology, how they shape, and actually the industries as well as help and cannot help an athlete as such. The 3rd area of our conversation focused on on for the entrepreneurs who are looking into build an organization or a company in the health and wellness industry, how they should think about finding their target audience. Should they start with elite athletes or they start with the amateur athletes, which is a broader audience, and then bring it to the elite athletes. It's it's very interesting conversation and I was very, appreciative of Tom's top leadership in this space as such. We wrapped up our conversation obviously, touching up on his legendary career in health and wellness industry as as it's helped him to serve as advisory board member of so many health and wellness startups in today's world. I'm sure you'll enjoy this episode. And if you do, don't forget to like, share, and subscribe. Thanks for listening. Welcome, Tom. Glad to have you here on the pod. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to, spend the the next next couple of, next couple of minutes with you. Great. So we'll we'll start with your background with Polar. You are the former president of Polar North America, which you have a dramatic turnaround story with Polar. And if I look at your LinkedIn profile, you called out that you pretty much grow the d to c, a direct to consumer channel from less than 5% to over 25% of total rev. You Yeah. Also increase the gross margin by 32% with reducing the operating cost by 45% which is incredible numbers. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just curious. And, also, you are part of polar during during the COVID periods, like, in 2016 to 2021. So you have seen that COVID, time frame as well. I'll be curious. What are the catalysts for that growth that you're able to drive that dramatic turnaround for Polar? [Tom Fowler] Yeah. So if we're talking about top line growth Mhmm. So, you know, on the revenue, side of the the p and l. So the the first, the first driver, was to, stop focusing on trying to sell features and price Wow. And starts and start selling the brand. You know, Polar has this incredible position in in the market, of being the original innovator in wearable technology. You know, they, the company developed the first ever, heart rate monitor, you know, monitor, you know, that could be used by an athlete back in the late seventies and began commercializing, you know, in, like, 79. I had my first one in 83. You know, and it and and the I the IP that has been developed since, you know, the beginning of the company even through to today is incredible. Like, as a technical company, with through r and d engineering excellence, you know, Polar really has no peer. It's it's absolutely it's absolutely fantastic. That was no not very well understood by the market. So the notion of of technical excellence, you know, dramatically better data accuracy than, other alternatives. You know, this story hadn't hadn't been hadn't been told. So we really needed to impose upon the consumer and the retailer, you know, the the core the core value proposition around differentiation, which, you know, wasn't like we have more features than the up. It was that, you know, when we bring something forward to the market, the technical excellence, the solidity of the engineering underneath it is without peer. So if if you care about accuracy and if you care about quality, you know, Polar is the best choice. May not be the biggest brand. You know, it's not Apple. It's not, you know, it's not Garmin. It's not as well known. But for those who, you know, care to, look under the hood and see, you know, what actually is driving the function of the product, you know, solar is is outstanding. That story had not been told. I see. Once we started telling that story, it allowed us to get away from, a discount driven, pricing strategy. It allowed us to resonate with core, performance oriented, markets in a way that they hadn't necessarily appreciated, and made us increasingly, you know, on a split decision where they know a lot of good products on the market. But, you know, we we could win once the narrative shifted over to our areas of strength. So that was that was number 1. Number 2, curiously, you know, most people when they think about revenue expansion, they think about, you know, expanding the retail footprint, you know, and open up the distribution. Right. And and in in Polar's case, prior administration had done exactly that, you know, with, like, reckless abandon. Yeah. Polar Polar could, you know, could have been found in Walgreens drugstores. It was present at Best Buy. It was present at Dick's. It was present at, you know, at Costco. Oh, wow. I mean, I like I mean, this made no sense made no sense. And, you know, the the t's and c's on, that those retailers impose upon a small brand were were onerous and never got negotiated. So, so we were getting our face ripped off, not only in terms of product sitting and not and not checking through, but, it was just getting hammered on price, which made our core channels, notably our own web shop Mhmm. And sports specialty retailers, you know, super disenfranchised. Because they're like, well, we can't make any money with your stuff, so therefore, we're not gonna emphasize your stuff, and we're gonna even delist it. I see. So, you know, really, you know, kind of, counterintuitive thing that had to be done was, I I, you know, I I had to fire, a ton of retailers. Like Oh, wow. You know, and and how to negotiate out of those out of those very onerous contracts that had, you know, one-sided return rights and ex you know, all associated, you know, fees. You know, we're able to we're able to man navigate to avoiding all of them, which is a story for another day. But once we got the the our channel present our channel footprint cleaned up, then we could lift then we could lift the, lift the the pricing structure back to RRP. People started making money. When they start making money, they start emphasizing the product, and you start to increase the velocity of sales. So that was that was, I would say was the second thing. And the third thing, was in this category, a lot of product is bought on Amazon. You know, it just it's a it's a fad. Right. Right. So, establishing a much, much higher level of competence and excellence in, a, our relationship with Amazon, and, b, our execution performance with Amazon, you know, dramatically drove dramatic increases in volume on the platform, but not through discounting not through discounting. It was all about, leveraging AMS, you know, getting, getting the pages right, you know, getting the equivalent of SEO right. So this this was this was key, because Amazon is such a critical channel in this in this segment. [Kamal Datta] I see. So I think that, you know, the combination of those of those pillars, you know, in a nutshell, were the the key drivers to, not only improving the gross margin, but also improving the, the the top line. Oh, that's that's amazing to know. And as you shifted the story from features to kind of the core strength of Polar, which is kind of the accuracy, did you see that it resonated with a certain martin market segment of athletes versus the other segments? Yeah. [Tom Fowler] Definitely resonated with a, with a segment of the market that was either Mhmm. Quite dedicated, you know, quite dedicated amateur, endurance athlete, who understood the different that the difference between you know, I like that. If you're talking heart rate, the difference between being at, say, 130 versus 140 is can be monumental. You know, you're you're in a completely different energy zone. You know, the the character of the training is totally different. It's only 10 beats. But if you look at the variability, between different products on the market relative to to accuracy, you'll you'll easily easily see, you know, a divergence of of of 10 beats or more. And the other and the and the other one is is also the, is the sensitivity of the heart rate sensor to be to have as minimal lag as possible. So, you know, heart rate is a lagging indicator. You know, it takes you know, if I stand up for my desk right now, my heart rate my heart rate will respond, but a sensor won't register that response, you know, for, you know, 30 seconds or a minute. Like, it's always kind of trailing. So, you know, the degree to which you can re you can reduce lag and get more accuracy in the moment. That's that's super key. So the so that was one segment that was like, oh, this this is this is good. The second segment were the institutional customers. So we're here talking, we we did a you know, it still do. The company still does a really robust business with the United States Department of Defense, US Military, US Martial Service, Elite Sports Teams, you know, in the 5 major US sports leagues. You know, these folks don't fool around, Like, you know, they don't care who you are. You know? Right. And there's no like, it's they're not interested in, like, sexy, you know, sexy images marketing. They're like, does this stuff work? Right. And they put it and they put it through its paces against, you know, laboratory grade gold standard product before they make a decision about where to spend their budget. We were able to be very, very successful on the on the b two b side, by virtue of the emphasis we placed on accuracy and sensitivity in in the in the data, you know, to be truly real time. So that that was a channel outside of consumer that that benefited very, very strongly from, from the emphasis as well, of course, you know, the research community. You know, there's a Oh, okay. The company has a very strong relationship, for example, with Memorial Sloan Kettering Okay. Hospital, with, you know, over 700 US based universities where polar, Polar's technology will be will be used Mhmm. As the gold standard for them to, you know, be pursuing whatever, biophysical or biochemical study they they might be doing, but they will choose polar because they know that it is the best and most accurate for research purposes. Mhmm. So, you know, and and the result of, you know, the result of that accuracy was not only were used, but, you know, we became present, you know, as was not only were used, but, you know, we became present, you know, as the note as the noted provider in all of the white papers that Okay. Were the outcomes of the study. So it's like, alright, everybody starts reading, you know, anybody in that community starts reading these white papers about, you know, how how a particular study was conducted, what the results were. Well, they're always gonna look at like, what was, you know, what was the design protocol for the research. I see. You know, I see. When they're like, oh, polar, polar, polar, polar, polar all across the board. You know, that's a nice effect on on certifying that the the brand is good. In fact, I think while I was at Polar, the company was cited and I think it was 735 independent, research institution white papers. Oh, wow. The next closest the next closest brand was 11. Oh, wow. That's like I don't know how many multiples I have to put my math hat on. Yeah. [Kamal Datta] That is pretty big. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, 735 to 11 for for, you know, 2nd place. Well, you know, it's a pretty good snap of approval around technical excellence. And, you know, there's a trickle down effect of that, you know, to, you know, not only in b to b, but then from b to b to in b to c. Right. So, this this kind of brand halo around, technical excellence is was was key. So those those communities, really, really liked, really like that. No. [Kamal Datta] That's amazing to know. Now a curious question from my side. I'm wearing an Apple Watch, and I know we're talking about Polar. Mhmm. One thing that I'll I was always curious, what makes a smartwatch smart? Like, what is your take on it? As you have seen, I've always seen the holopolar across different end to end. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the definition of a smartwatch has evolved and will continue to evolve. [Tom Fowler] You know? Yeah. In, you know, in a time not so very long ago, smartwatch was just sort of a generic term for for any digital watch that was capturing any, you know, variety of data, whether that was biometric data or data flowing from the phone or through the you know, or or the cloud. So it was just sort of like something that does more than tell time. I see. I see. It was it was a smartwatch. So, you know, now, you know, I think the the the definition of smartwatch is really changing to, to be something that is delivering more integrated guidance where multiple data multiple data inputs are being synthesized Mhmm. Stimulated, run through really, really, really, really intelligent algorithms Uh-huh. To then deliver an insight to you where you sort of like, what does it mean? Okay. My you know, I've been let's just take the athletic case. I've been running for an hour, and this is how far I've run, and this is what my heart rate has been. Like, well, okay. Interesting. But what does that mean? Right. Like Right. Is that is that appropriate? How does that how does that fit into my overall goals? And so it's my overall goal to run a really fast 10 k on Saturday. It's my overall goal to lose weight. Is my overall goal, like, you know, just stress release and and relaxation? Am I a cardiac rehab patient? I see. Yeah. So it it may be that, you know, you if you let's just take an easy example. Let's say somebody goes and runs 7 miles in 1 hour. So at 8:30 per mile. Mhmm. Well, like, is that is that appropriate for you? It might be perfect. Right. But for me, you know, it might be completely off the mark. And for my wife, it might be it might be somewhere in between. So, you know, when I think about smartwatch today, it's actually delivering, delivering relevant guidance that is personalized to to the user. Similarly, you know, what we're seeing now is our our non biometric inputs feeding into that guidance. I see. So, you know, you you start to not only bring biometrics in, but you can start bringing environmental metrics in. Well, how hot is it? What's the heat? What's the heat index? So today here in New York, it's gonna be like 92 degrees Fahrenheit with pretty high solar index. So running 7 miles in 1 hour today might be very different than running 7 miles in 1 hour equivalent fitness, you know, if the if but the only thing that changed was it was if it was 45 degrees and cloudy. Right. Like Right. Okay. Well, like, what is the impact of of the environmental condition relative to what I should be doing in order to deliver me more effectively towards my objective, whatever that objective might be. So we start to see that. And then you start thinking about, you know, factors that are completely outside of that hour. How well did I sleep last night? Did I travel? Did I just return from, like, on a night flight from Asia yesterday? Right. You know, what, you know, what are my hormone you know, my what does my testosterone versus cortisol level look like? Mhmm. You know, and what is on my schedule for today or tomorrow? Am I getting on a plane tonight to fly to Europe? Like, wow, I'm gonna have a lot of physical stress from just travel. I you know, I'm super loaded up Yeah. From the 8th rep even if you know, not because of, you know, athletic activity, but from travel activity. Oh, and now my calendar, the watch knows I'm getting on a flight from JFK to Frankfurt and going straight into meetings like no recovery. Now now does that 1 hour and 7 you know, at 8:30 per mile still make sense? Yeah. Yeah. All of it. So the smartwatch, you know, is evolving to a place where it's it's looking at the human in in a 360 degree way that it has not in the past that goes beyond biometrics, it goes beyond physical activity, but looks at the total life. I see. Right? So then to let ever, you know, to deliver their ads like, hey, maybe the smart thing for me to do today is just like, you know, go for a walk and do a little bit of yoga and make sure that, you know, like I re you know, I re crank up on hydration electrolytes before I go to the airport. You know? That's true. Yeah. And so on and so forth. So so that's the the smartwatch of the future is really a life coach, not just a sport not just a smart sport coach. Not just not just data, but interpreted, you know, truly, interpreted data, that allows you to be more precise and more on point. So every single day Mhmm. Is a great day relative to health, wellness, fitness, emote mental and emotional state Mhmm. The work performance, mental acuity. Right. Every everything. Not just not just did I achieve my weight loss goal, or did I break my goal time Yeah. In the you know, which is a very silent approach, which, you know, was the best in class in in, you know, just last say, as recently as 2 or 3 years ago. So now we move, you know, we move into total life performance. So, this is a long answer to your your short question, but No. No. I think direction of the entire digital fitness industry, you know, and with the smart rats being and and the and the phone, the app, you know, application on the phone Yeah. Being the the hub on that wheel. Yeah. No. [Kamal Datta] That's that's thank you for painting the picture. It looks like, you know, the watch has become not a thermostat, which just tells you, okay. It's 92 degrees at in New York today versus trending towards it'll give you some actionable insights while you can become a thermostat, where you can adjust what you need to adjust because you're giving getting some actionable insights to act on based on the information that is it's collecting there. Yep. So this would be a good segue to a a a dear topic of mine. I know we chatted a little bit about it in our, last week as well, which is with so much available in the marketplace today, for an average athlete or even if you're for elite athletes, it differs because you have a team to select what do we use. But with all these technologies available today, how an average athletes or amateur athletes would try to improve there, decide which one to use, which are not to use, what is the right fit for them? What would be your kinda take on that? Yeah. Well, you know, that's a highly personal, a highly personal, decision. [Tom Fowler] And I would say that it is important Mhmm. Because all because so many of the products are quite good. You know, I got on the soapbox about Polar's excellence, and and rightly so. But that's not to disparage Garmin or Apple, you know, or or any of the others. You know, they they make perfectly good products. Right. So as is the case, for example, with eyewear. Right? Yeah. Let's take sunglasses. Okay. We all know that it's a good idea to wear sunglasses, you know, for a whole variety of reasons. But if the only sunglass option that were available to to you were really ugly Yeah. You know, no matter even though you knew you're supposed know you're supposed to wear them, you'd be, disinclined to wear them as consistently as you ought to. Mhmm. Because you don't like because because you don't like the brand, you don't like the way they look, you don't like the way they feel, even though it's good for you. Mhmm. Kinda like it's kinda like flossing. Right? You know, we should. But, like like, I'm gonna guess that if you're like me, you know, maybe there are a few days here and there where you don't do what you know is in your best interest. Watches are no different. You know, the the face is the most precious real estate on the planet. People are super particular about what goes on their face. This is what drives, you know, the massive eyewear industry to have, like, a bazillion different styles of, of eyewear, whether it's, you know, just corrective lenses or or sunglasses. People are very particular because, you know, it's going on their face. Same thing with cosmetics. The second most valuable real estate on the planet is wristwear and finger wear. Mhmm. This is why this is why there also are bazillions of different watch brands and and jewelry brands because people are very particular about what goes on their on their their fingers and their wrist because it's a it's a statement of personal expression. So coming back to your question, An individual needs to feel comfortable Uh-huh. With the brand and the form factor of the product that they that they choose, that it that it feels like I like, as a personal as a personal statement of who I am, I'm comfortable putting this on my wrist just the same way the people are particular about, eyewear on their face. That's often overlooked. I see. Yeah. In sports, you know, sports watch, you know, companies all are like, you know, features, benefits, interface, blah blah. They're like, well, how does the how does how does the aesthetic make you feel? Mhmm. You know? You know, we started to see both Garmin and Polar, you know, bring different, you know, you know, going from 43 mil to 41 mil to 38 mils or different sizes, and then bringing, you know, different, you know, different colors and different treatments, you know, titanium versus aluminum, you know, plastic versus steel, like, some of them have a more heft to them, some of them feel lighter. You know? And this is all part of, you know, trying to trying to get to the aesthetic correctly. But the key thing is, if you're not if the the you could have the most awesome product from a function perspective, you maybe get as a gift, so it didn't cost you any money. So price is out of the equation. You're like, I just feels I just don't feel I I don't like it because it's so big and chunky. Like, it's annoying me. I'm not gonna wear it at night to do the sleep tracking. Like, I just can't. Like, so stupid in this in this wearing this thing. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it doesn't matter how good it is. So you gotta be so you gotta be comfortable about, like, okay. Where are your own personal guardrails? Yeah. Just aesthetically, you know, be before you start looking at fashion. You know? And and by no means should any individual end up being boxed out from getting the right, the right capabilities, you know, because they're a slave to, aesthetic. Because no matter what your setup preference is, there's a great product for you. But, you know, the you know, so the but the first stop is, okay, like, where where what what sort of form factor am I looking for? You know, that's that's I think is a more important decision point than most people realize. You know, putting it out front, I think is important. Then second, the appreciation Uh-huh. For what modern technology can deliver in terms of value, and life improvement, athletic improvement for 98% of the people who are in the market, the the potential value delivery is wildly underappreciated I see. By the by the by the tip by 98% of the consumers relative to what the technology is capable of of doing for them. Mhmm. So a lot of people approach a technology purpose, purchase with their history in mind. They say, well, all I really needed to do is, like, basically, I need a glorified stopwatch. And, you know, and maybe, like, I wanna see, like, distance and time and maybe, like, heart rate. And they think they're like, that's what I've always done, so that's all I'm gonna do. Uh-huh. Yeah. Right? So the huge miss there is is that well, it's like, you need all you won't you don't you don't need to spend very much money in order to just keep doing what you've always done. Right. But that's not the point. Why are you be you know, thinking about parting with 2, 3, 5, $700 in the first place? Right? Is it to keep doing exactly what you already have been doing? No. It should you know, you should be adopting a mindset. You know, once people present this to people, they go like, yeah. You're right. There's there's there's I I am leaving opportunity on the table by not being more open minded to embracing the full capability that the you know, that these apps and and technologies on my wrist can can deliver. As a result, my guidance always and this is not just relative to wearable technology. It's it's with, you know, skis, bikes, any, you know, piece of performance sports equipment. Always punch always punch above the the capability that you think you need. Buy a better product, a more fully featured product than you think you deserve or than that you think you will make use of. Because if you have it, if you have it in your hand, like, you will use it. You, you know, you've made a bigger investment. You're like, I need to get value out of this thing. You're gonna ski more days. You know, you're gonna explore the capability of the ski more richly than you would if you had something that was more mid range. Same with watches. And it, but if you gate yourself and say, well, I only use something super basic, well, welcome to the world of being average. Yeah. I'm like, no I know and that's not that your mindset if you're thinking about parting with a bunch of money for a new device. Mhmm. You know, it's not what it's not the outcome that you that you actually wish to achieve. So don't compromise. Right. Right. You know? No. That that's it. But go under the new purchase with an open mind to explore in all, you know, the fullness of its capability. Yeah. No. That's great perspective. You know? [Kamal Datta] It goes same like I I exactly did the same thing that you just painted the picture. I needed this basic thing. I ran tracks. I had to make sure that, you know, I'm I'm stopwatch. I I had the physers. And then couple of basic features. But as you get to more, you started to see, oh, it can have add value to my routine or the training or the goals I'm trying to chase, and you upgrade because it was already there because I upgraded purposely. Yeah. That makes total sense. Now, debiting a little bit on this topic. So we talked about, you know and outside as you are looking at technologies, how to leverage that. Now there is a trend, that we have seen that more and more health centers are adopting more and more technologies to help the members jobs, you know, upgrade their lifestyles or help different ways there. As you advise or you are part of advisory board of a lot of, health and fitness tech organizations Mhmm. And you have visibility into what the trend in the industry is. From outdoor to indoor side, what do you think is the cascading impact of adoption of technology for the user as well as for the, maybe, the organizers or the health centers itself? [Tom Fowler] Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, this is, this is one of my favorite topics. Okay. Yeah. Let me, let me try to summarize. And and in fact, if you wanna get a little more insight, I just I actually just yesterday, threw up a a short post on LinkedIn Oh, okay. On this exact topic. Oh, great. Sure. I'll put in the link. Yeah. Feel free to check that out. But, you know, the so let's look at it from the, from the fitness center perspective first. Sure. In the not so distant past, a fitness center was a place that people paid money, to, for the privilege of walking through their doors in order to exercise. That was it. I pay you money, and you provide a facility where I can go, you know, do any number of different physical activities for 45 minutes to an hour or so. You know? Might be typical. Right? That was it. Very binary, very one dimensional relationship. So, and the same was true of the digital fitness companies, the home fitness companies. You know, the favorite, you know, favorite, example, of course, is Peloton just because everybody knows them, but they're not alone. Right. And that's where, you know, Peloton said, oh, great. You know, you spend a couple of grand on a bike. We deliver these spin classes to you, and you pay us you pay us a fee. You know, you you buy the bike, and then you pay us a monthly fee. Very straightforward. The problem with both of those models, which the industry now is rapidly evolving away from, is is their binary nature, you know, their silo nature. So, you know, Peloton's debacle is, you know, well chronicled. You know, the blue one off the rose people said, you know what? I like, isn't there more to life than riding a spin, you know, riding a spin bike, you know, you know, with an instructor, you know, doing kind of the same thing, and people got bored. They move on. They wanna try something different. Immediately, Peloton becomes irrelevant to that consumer. And even at Peloton's peak, when they were, you know, their typical user was, engaged with, in an activity on their Peloton bike, like, 25 days a month. Right? Mhmm. So, you know, if you say, alright. Well, that's like 5 days a week, and it's maybe an hour. So it's 5 hours a week. It's an hour you know, less than an hour a day average. Like, you mean you're saying, Peloton, that you are only relevant to your consumer for 5 hours a week. Like, what about the other 835 hours? Right. Irrelevant. Mhmm. So the moment that people are like, I'm kinda overriding my bike indoors, like, poof, you're you you're you go to 0, and a lot of Pelotons end up on the curb, you know, waiting to be picked up by by the scavengers. The same was true of the fitness centers. So, you know, people people would say, oh, like, either I'm in I I either it's convenient for me to go to this fitness center or it's or in which case I go, or and I'm motivated and inspired and I go. Mhmm. But, but then I fall off the wagon. And I and I don't and I and I leave because all that fitness center means to me is exercise. Right. So now courtesy of wearable technology, and other factors, the fitness center can be the hub on the wheel of an, an individual human's entire life where we know as a finisher, not just that you came through our doors, but we know you chose today to go for a run or to go for a swim in the in in at the pool or that you flew in from Asia last night I see. On a night flight and are leaving to go to, you know, to Europe tomorrow. Mhmm. We know what your we can know what your sleep, you know, sleep score quality is. So now our ability to serve you Mhmm. And to deliver value to you and to cater to your reality life reality just went through the roof. Right? If we're connected to you in ways that go beyond the time you spend inside our walls. Then second, of course, are the you know, outside of the wearable world are all the different domains of health and wellness support that can be brought inside the walls of the fitness center, whether that be physical therapy and rehab, you know, for somebody recovering from an injury, could be cardiac rehab. Yeah. Yeah. It can be nutrition, nutrition and stress management, coaching, you know, mental and mental and emotional health and wellness. And you can even, you know, start to see some of, some of the the operators moving even into medical where they're having, you know, orth you know, orthopedic MDs on staff to be able to assess you. So whether whether you're, you know, no matter where you are on the on your on the on the journey or what your objectives are, that the fitness center enabled by wearables and sir and and service expertise inside their walls becomes more than a place to exercise. It becomes a place where you go for, like, holistic holistic life performance management. So wearable technology, of course, because of its 247 tracking capability Right. Is a great sort of quiet monitor of, like, well, is all this stuff working? Mhmm. Right. You know, from a data perspective, is the person is the person benefiting purely from a quantifiable metric based, you know, perspective? Can the can the, application interface also allow inputs on subjective non measurable progress? Like, well, like, how well do you feel? How do you feel today? How well do you feel that you slept last night? You know, and start you know, and this is where AI can start to start to be very, very helpful where, you know, it's taking prompts from some of the subjective inputs, combining it with the data and the demonstrated behavior patterns and start to really, you know, start to deliver a level of insight, you know, coaching and support and and value and service. Right. But, you know, would have been unthinkable, you know, just a few short years ago. So, this is, this is an exciting time whether you're a fitness center operator who can embrace that that type of visionary future. It's an exciting time if you're, you know, I'll call it, a digital, you know, digital fitness equipment company like a Peloton or Hydro or a ton. Yeah. You know, there are many of them, you know, to, you know, suddenly vault into a whole new dimension of of relevance and value that you can represent to your consumer as opposed to the binary transactional domain of value that that you have in the past. You know, and, of course, the same goes for the, you know, the wearable tech companies that, you know, that, are instrumental in powering, you know, empowering the delivery of that value. No. [Kamal Datta] Absolutely. Tom, do you see the data privacy is a concern, and how are you seeing organizations navigating that? [Tom Fowler] Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course, you know, an individual's data is owned by the individual. Right. So, so, you know, opening that data up to a third party must, you know, must by by law remain completely in the control of the individual. Right. So the question then is, well, why would, you know, why would I, as a consumer, open up, you know, private, biometric data or physiological data to a third party? And this is this is the sales and marketing challenge and, frankly, the bar that the Equinoxes, the lifetimes, and the others need to clear for talking fitness centers or the, you know, the tonals. Mhmm. You know, if you're, you know, let's use them as an example, need to clear if they're, a, you know, a digital fitness, equipment company Uh-huh. Where I need to understand the value that I will receive if I open up my data to them. Like, if they were to say, give me your give me your data, and they don't and they can't give me a really, really good compelling argument for why I should. Uh-huh. You know? Well, I'll be like, well, no. Yeah. But, I mean, then I'll be like, well, why should I? Like, what's you know? But if it's like, well, if I do this, this is what I get. Like, no. Okay. That's compelling. That's really compelling. Like, antitrust. I know there obviously has to be a lot of trust, just like there is between you and your doctor. Right. You know? So, I mean, if there's no trust, well, may maybe you don't tell the doctor the whole story. You know? Right. Like, same as with your lawyer. Like, oh, your lawyer is representing your interest. Well, if you don't trust your lawyer Right. Like, people will hold back and then the lawyer would be like, well, why didn't you tell me that? So, like, well, it actually boils down to trust. They might not say that, but, like, people and, you know, people have to have a certain level of trust. They that they're what needs to be kept private will be private. Mhmm. Right? You know, it'll just between be be between me and my doctor, between my lawyer, or between me Mhmm. And my fitness provider. Right. And I trust and I and I have a high level of trust that I'm around the sanctity of of that relationship. And I have a high level belief that I'm getting tremendous, tremendous value, in exchange for in exchange for my willingness to open up what otherwise, you know, I might keep to myself. So, you know, from and I think that's excellent because it obliges Mhmm. The fitness center or the tonal, you know, just using them as examples, to be to be really, really good. Right? Right. Like like, you can't kinda fake it and sort of say, you know, put a bunch of smoke and mirrors and blah blah blah. Yeah. Something that's not real Mhmm. And isn't really powerful in terms of consumer value, delivery. You you must. If you don't, you know, then the people will be like, this is, you know, this isn't particularly helpful, so I'm gonna retract, or I'm not gonna do it in the first way if I'm not convinced. So they have you know, it keeps everybody it keeps everybody quite honest, and really operating the consumer's best interest as opposed to just like, you know, maybe the temptation to make a quick buck. And you charge more on a subscription Right. For something that is maybe not fully baked, isn't really useful. Mhmm. You know? So, I think it's, it's a great, you know, a great governing mechanism. To ensure quality, and to ensure quality for those who are who are asking for the information, they gotta deliver. Yeah. You know, they gotta deliver, otherwise they're otherwise, it ain't gonna work. Yeah. Plus they have to deliver because I would think those fitness centers or, you know, facilities are not that, kinda affordable range. Like, they're not playing with, say, Planet Fitness for just an example, range. They probably are more equipped. It will be more on the expensive side for the folks who are being part of it. So they have to deliver their value for the amount they're spending too as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For for sure. You know, I mean, it's you can you can charge Ferrari prices if you deliver a Ferrari. You can't charge Ferrari prices if, you know, if you're delivering, you know, a, you know, say, an entry level Volkswagen. It doesn't mean the entry level Volkswagen isn't a perfectly good car. Right. But it's not a Ferrari. So you gotta you know, you and when you buy a Ferrari Mhmm. Okay. You're buying, you know, you're buying a lot of things. You know, brand prestige, product performance, you know, a lot of emotional value there. But, you know, the service level that Ferrari delivers to a Ferrari owner, like and the entry to that community, you know, is is extraordinary. And let's just say, there's nothing not no way your garden variety Volkswagen dealer down the street I'm not picking on Volkswagen. There's no way Volkswagen no way that a typical Volkswagen dealer could even think about that. They don't even know what it is. So you gotta but you you gotta align your pricing according to, you know, and then live up to that pricing, that pricing position in terms of the complete, you know, character value deliver, you know, and be very clear about what that value is. So there's complete alignment and delight. Right. And when a customer says, yes. I'm gonna throw down, you know, $200 a month, $500 a month, you know, in the case of some of the even more, you know, super super gems, you know, in case of Equinox, it's $40 a year. Yeah. You know? So, but be very, very clear, like, yep, that's what we charge, and here's and and here's the amazing experience and value that you get. Well, now, like, for, you know, for folks, who are are considering whether to do the $40,000 a year Equinox program or or the $500 a month program with somebody else or the $200 a month program, you know, with, say, lifetime. Mhmm. It's not $15 a month with Planet Fitness. Right. And but they're gonna go like, oh, I understand I understand the value, Then the company delivers on the value Right. And then some. Mhmm. And the person ends up with a better outcome than they had imagined. Mhmm. And now 200, 500, a1000, 40,000 is just like, oh, that was totally worth it. Right. Right? But if they don't deliver, the customer is like, I feel like I got misled and maybe even ripped off. You know? Yep. It's kind of a split. It's one way or the other. So Yeah. You know, if you're if you're gonna play if you're gonna play at the premium end, you know, it's a bit of a crucible. You need to deliver you need to deliver exceptional experience and value consistently every day. Otherwise, you know, otherwise, you know, you can lay yourself into a world of hurt pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah. [Kamal Datta] No. So in a great analogy, I love the Ferrari versus entry level Volkswagen, just for an example analogy you picked up. Now just going back to your background, Tom, a little bit, and I think this is primarily would be a question from a, say, health and wellness technology startup that you're looking at. Now anyone who is starting up in this, you know, industry has the option of, looking at starting with the pyramid of either the with the top athletes or the elites, or we can just serve the masses. As you work with lot of, startups or organizations in the health and wellness, especially in the tech sector, Is there kinda a clear formula by which direction someone should think about? Top of the pyramid or bottom of the pyramid or somewhere in the middle? What would you recommend for for someone? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a really great question. [Tom Fowler] And and the answer is there's no one recommendation that applies to, you know, every company. You know, each company is different. And and, but there are a couple of principles that I think are, are applicable universally. The first, you know, is, the concept of first understanding who your core consumer is or your core, you know, or core customer. Like, who are they really? Like, really, really. Like and, you know, Seth Godin, and I didn't make this up. Seth Godin, I picked this up from him. He talks about the minimum viable audience, MCA. MCA. About minimum viable product, minimum viable audience. Like, what is the smallest, narrowest group of people who are gonna love what you're doing? Like, who are they? Like and narrower is better. Right? Narrower is better because if you're a startup, you don't have a lot of capital. So you need extreme focus. So, understanding who the who the MVA is and then building for them. Mhmm. Now maybe that MVA is a is a small, small, you know, subset of a very large market. Right. Or maybe it's the the entirety of a very small market. Right. But, you know, understanding which it is, and there's not one right or wrong answer. But the thing you know, the emphasis has to be on minimal. So first, getting very, very sharp around around that. And that's key because because that's where you need to focus first. Mhmm. With your m with your MVP, those are the people who are going to understand the value of what you're you're you're building most readily. So the cost of getting them on board is the lowest. I see. And their tolerance for imperfection will be highest. That's a great point. Yeah. You know, which is critical when you're talking about, you know, MVP, introduction, you know, which by definition means probably not the sun, the moon, and the stars, and probably, you know, a little bit rough around the edges. So you need you need an MBA that has, you know, certain level of tolerance for imperfection. That is critical, you know, and then lean into the second principle, which is, you know, which I I am a huge proponent of lean startup principles, which is, you know, bring the minimum the truly minimum minimum minimum viable product to the truly minimum minimum viable audience, with the intent exclusively that, to validate and invalidate, to learn and refine. That's it. I see. You're not trying to scale, trying to just, like, validate and invalidate, which aspects work and don't, which aspects resonate and don't. Mhmm. What do we you know, where do we need to focus the next round of product or service development Mhmm. To emphasize, you know, where, you know, where the bull's eye is and discard the stuff that no that isn't working or nobody cares about. That is often very different from the thesis that the founder had when they when he or she went into it. It's dramatic how often. The founder needs to decouple from their own beliefs Mhmm. You know, based on the feedback that they get. So so that's, that's the second, you know, second super important thing. Once you've gone through those, you know, those paces, you understand where where you fit on the market, Matt. Uh-huh. Then you understand, like, where is the real potential for this product or service? You know, how are people perceiving it? And then you can, you know, then you can map, you know, a, both go to market strategy and a product development sequence and timeline, you know, that obviously intersects with GTM. Now does that land you as the kingpin in a tip of the spear's, you know, like sort of high performance position? Mhmm. Like, then it's like, alright. That's where we're at. Like, if we don't like that, maybe we're in the wrong business. I see. I see. Yeah. You know? Or does it land you in, like, oh, okay. Well, like, this is, you know, this is an application or service that will you know, like, is for all, like, high volume, low price fitness operators. You know? I see. Like, they're gonna they're gonna like, we have validated that they will love it. Well, now if if we don't like that, maybe we're on the wrong business, or maybe we need to change this. But but understanding who ultimately who you really are as a business and where you fit, where you resonate Mhmm. From a in a position from which excellence can emerge. Mhmm. That's the that's the the task for the founder in the early stages of I see. His or her, you know, company journey. You know? So no bias around it has to you have to start here, you know, at the top tip of the pyramid, or you have to start here in the masses. I see. You know, you gotta you gotta go through the process to understand authentically where you land. Right. Right. So I think your recommended is find the MVA, step to build the MVP for the MVA, and then the third step is then you decide where you should start, top of the pyramid or the bottom or somewhere in the middle based on what you learned from the step one and All about establishing that clarity around what your true value is and for and for whom. That is true. That is true. And, you know, and then and then, you know, then you have that clarity, and then you're like, okay. How do we feel about that? And what do we do with that? How do we move forward from here? Mhmm. But you're you're dealing with market truth as opposed to founder theory. Mhmm. Right. [Kamal Datta] Right. Now I cannot wrap up our conversation without getting some insight or guidance from your background, especially the illustrious illustrious career that you had, Tom. You worked with some, you know, legendary brands, make them grow, and there are results to show. If you have to recommend someone wants to follow, say, Tom's footsteps, like, what are the key learning so far or retrospective you have that to pass into someone else? Yeah. [Tom Fowler] The, I would give a couple of piece of advice. 1 of, you know, one of which is, you know, represented by my own, trajectory and another which is, boy, I wish somebody had told me to think about that. Uh-huh. You know, it's something I would have benefited from, and I'm really you know, and and, and I would recommend somebody pursue, but it's not something that I have in my in my experience at. But, boy, you know, that was a was a mess. So on the on the this is what's worked well for me is, never, you know, never not only never shy away from a monumental challenge, like, actually seek out, like, the the really tough situations. Like, you know, my whole career has been has been based, you know, whether it's big giant companies like Nike, which was a turnaround But in the division, I looked after the ECG product category in Europe, you know, it was imploding. I mean, it was a complete disaster. Now Nike as a company is, you know, another matter, but that product category Mhmm. Was was, you know, going off a cliff. So, I mean, so it doesn't it's you know, turnarounds are not the sole provenance of this of small and medium sized businesses. There can be turnaround and, like, huge challenges inside very successful large organizations. I see. Seek them out, like, you know, most people shy away. Like like, you know, sprint towards those because very few people will. Right. So, so in my experience, you know, being involved in early stage businesses that have, you know, fires to fight every day and challenges to overcome, like life and death challenges, like, all the time. Mhmm. Midsize companies that, like, can't figure out how to grow. They've gotten out of the blocks. Mhmm. But they can't figure out how to go beyond out of the blocks. You know? I mean, Cervelo would be a great example of that. And when I when I joined Cervelo, that was great company, real not distressed. Guys had built an amazing product. Mhmm. But, you know, they weren't scaling. You know, the the company was just kinda bumping along and wasn't getting its due market share given the the engineering excellence of the product. So, you know, how do we how do we scale this thing? It's like, well, that was that was an a difficult needle to thread. Mhmm. So, whether it's turnarounds or, you know, I'll call them stalled situations where there's, like, upside that the company for whatever reason is not capturing, like, those are the tough challenges that involve the hard big decisions. Be part of be, you know, get into those situations as often as you can. Like, they're not easy. You know, you'll be staring at the ceiling at 3 AM, you know, try to figure out what to do, you know, and that's not you know, but, you know, and in the startup case, I mean, I can tell you, you know, when I was at Recon Instruments as an example or as a as a CMO there before we sold the business to Intel, you know, the company was was gonna be bankrupt cash out in in in less than 10 days Wow. 5 5 times in in 3 years. We were, like, up against it. We're, like, we're not gonna be able to make payroll. Now very few people in the company knew that. You know, it's just a small collection, but it's like, that'll get your attention. You know? Like, we need we need to figure out how to, you know, how to, how to raise some cash, like, to like, right now. Yeah. Otherwise, you know, I mean so these challenges, whether they're as acute as the one I just described or or or not, they they force you to focus on what really, really, really matters and what the core root of the problem is in a way that more status quo situations never will. So that's that would be piece of guidance number 1. Like, seek out the toughest, toughest situations and, you know, and and run into them. Like, you know, you'll you'll get beat up. Yeah. You might not you might you the company might fail. You might fail, but I'll tell you the cathartic, character of that experience will shape you in a way that nothing nothing else, in in life, can. So that's one. Now the thing I never had that I really, really would advise somebody to to try to get in their toolkit is the is, an incredible mentor. Mhmm. At the senior level in a in a very sophisticated company, you know, somebody who's been through the grind Mhmm. Is very sophisticated in their intellectual process and who is willing to take you under their wing. And I see. And and and and that's not just, like, for a brief period of time. That's sort of more a a life mentor scenario where, you know, sometimes for a young person, that can be a friend of a friend of their parents. You know? Right. Right. You know? Right. It rarely is the parent, but it it can be a friend of the parent. But seeking out, you know, a mentor or a group of mentors who are really who who are willing to invest in you in their by you know, in through their time. Mhmm. And and really be that life guide, you know, and maybe having a couple and and and nurturing that relationship. Mhmm. Sometimes it could be your boss. Right. But it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be in your company. It could be. It doesn't have to be. But having the, you know, the wise men and wise women counsel, you know, that are on your team for long periods of time, Mhmm. Invaluable. Now I only I only figure that out late in life. Now, you know, I've got a a bunch of folks who are, I I turn to for for wisdom and guidance and and, you know, in many cases, it's sort of symbiotic. We sort of help each other out. Mhmm. But, I wish I I wish I had had done that as a 25 year old, as a 30 year old, as a 35 year old, and it just you know, I I didn't, but, you know, and it made the road harder unnecessarily. I see. I see. No. [Kamal Datta] That's the great piece of advice is, I really appreciate that. And thank you so much, Tom, for your time today and sharing couple of the areas that you touched upon. I'm sure it would be incredibly valuable to my the listeners of this pod as well. So thank you one second, Tom. Yeah. [Tom Fowler] It's been a pleasure. Fun to chat with you and, look forward to continuing the conversation offline. Absolutely.