[Gary McNamee] Right. Back in 1936, that was the first television broadcast was the Olympic games. Yeah. In 2024, we wanna have this Herald in in revolutionize the introduction of physically interactive television. Mhmm. So what they're gonna do on August 10th, they're gonna have a 10 ks for folks who can't complete a full marathon, but they're also gonna have the marathon porteuse Mhmm. Allowing people from around the world to take part in this event. They're gonna have, I think, about 50,000 people at the Champ de L'Isle. And on the actual Olympic course, prepares 2024, They're gonna actually run on the Olympic course. But in conjunction with that live event, they wanna have people from around the world simultaneously experiencing the same thing on their treadmills at home, which is incredibly neat. It's it's really, really exciting. [Kama Datta] Hey, listeners. Welcome to the next episode of Tech in 20 6.2 pod. I'm very excited to bring you the next speaker, Gary McNamee, founder and CEO of Outside Interactive based in Hopkinton, Mass. That's a stone's throw away from Boston Marathon start line. Outside Interactive has a product called simulator, which actually simulates the race course into your living rooms, either as in a treadmill or a smart device. And it can be a great option for running a virtual race or you are training for an upcoming race in harsh weather conditions where you don't want to go outside, but stay indoors and train. Gary shares a fascinating story of how he built the first version of simulator, back in 10 years back when he we started the company. And the vision he has for simulator or outside interactive going forward, I'm sure you'll enjoy the excitement and enthusiasm he has for this product. If you do, don't forget to like, share, and subscribe to this channel. Thanks for listening. Welcome, Gary, to the tech in 26.2 part. Really excited to have you here. [Gary McNamee] I'm very happy to be here. Thanks for the invite. [Kamal Datta] Welcome. So we can quickly start, with a quick introduction that based on what I understand your background. So Gary is the cofounder and CEO of in Boston or Hopkinton, which is the start line of Boston Marathon, called Outside Interactive. He started the company in 2011, but you have a you are a serial entrepreneur itself, and you are also ran Boston probably a couple of times. And what did I miss in this introduction? You want to add anything, Gary? [Gary McNamee] Well, actually, I'm I'm the founder. It probably would have been nice to have a cofounder. Okay. Misery loves company. Startups can be an interesting challenge, but, yeah. No. I I I am out in Hopkinton. My office is, literally a 113 steps from the start line of the Boston Marathon, on Hayden Pro. And, yes, I'm a serial entrepreneur. I'm from Boston. I grew up in West Roxbury. And, I've been an avid runner and a very big fan of the sport and, you know, different endurance events, including the Boston Marathon, pretty much all my life. Mhmm. So I I actually developed this idea of training for Boston many years ago, back in 2010, was a particularly bad day. It was, I think, a January day, and it was 3 feet of snow outside. And I was stuck inside on the treadmill doing a 20 mile run. Uh-huh. Doing a 20 miler is hard enough. Trying to do it on the treadmill is, significant. Yeah. So somewhere somewhere around mile 12 or so, staring at the wall, the idea had come to me. You know, I mean, the the the course is right up the street. Perhaps I can, you know, maybe go out and film the course and I can then watch it while I'm I'm running on my treadmill. You know, Idea seems simple enough. So I went out on the course, I stuck my head out the sunroof, my wife drove, I hit record on the camera, and it came out terrible. But, I knew that there was a kernel of potential here. There was possibilities. And so, you know, even though this was back in 2010, which was, my gosh, 14 years ago, a lot of the things that I mentioned or may mention during our discussion here, you know, I I can say something, but it it it might have taken 2 years in order to perfect it. So we have the benefit of hindsight now in in in in looking back, but it was a lot of trial and error, tremendous amount of trial and error, and trying to just figure out how it all would work and tie together. So, originally, I had come up with the idea of pre paste videos. I see. This was back when they had DVDs and, where everything was, you know, digital and streaming. So what I did is I actually went out and I filmed a few courses, and I filmed them 4 times and edited them to predetermined paces. You know, say Mhmm. 8 minutes a mile, 10 minutes a mile, 12 minutes a mile, 14 minutes a mile. So you would plug the DVD in, and you would hit play, and or you could pick where what mile you wanted to start on. And you were the slave, and the DVD was the master. And then what I mean by that is it was up to you to keep up. Right. So, you know, if you're the the the video is running, if you selected the 10 minute per mile pace, you know, people will actually ask me, how did you get the video to speed up and slow down on the I didn't. You had just recorded and edited different ways. But I see. That's a dirty little secret we never told anybody. But in any event, yeah. No. So it would be up to you to keep up, and you could sit on your couch and watch it. You know? So no sooner did I get that done and and figured out. And and by the way, the process of actually getting the smoothness of everything and and having it, you know, not look like it was all over the place, that took a lot of time and everything as well. We managed to figure it all out, to cut to the chase. And then, enjoying that, it had occurred to me and and friends had also said, you know, it would be really cool if this could literally adjust to your pace as you were running, and that required software. So I did have a software background. I've had a few other companies and did the, original programming, for a Windows version, and no sooner did get that done and working, which was great. But then everybody said, you know, this has to be an app. And, actually, they were right. Yeah. So, you know, more and at that point, the ship had sailed. I mean, I I just, you know, my coding skills were very they were good enough. As a as an entrepreneur, you get to be good enough at everything, but not great at anything. Right. So we I ended up farming out. We, farmed out the development for that. I had a few friends who helped on that and, you you know, came up with the Windows version, and then we came up with a a a, you know, an iPad version and an Android version, and, it was really cool. And then, the video would speed up and slow down, and you would wear a foot pod on your on your shoe, which would send a, a Bluetooth signal to your iPad, which would adjust the video. So it was pretty neat. And then somebody else has come up with the idea, boy, wouldn't it be really cool if the incline could adjust as you're running up Heartbreak Hill, for example. So nobody's ever happy or satisfied with what I did. It was always Yeah. But they were right. I mean, you know, you you wanted it to be able to do that automatically. And so, you know, it it that was another area. But then, you know, the problem with that was how do you communicate with the the actual equipment, the treadmill or the spin bike or whatever. And but around 2018 or so, smart treadmills were being introduced, 2017, 2018, which were Bluetooth capable. And that was a very big breakthrough because it allowed us with our app to actually communicate directly with the equipment, you know, on the iPad or what have you. So Mhmm. You would take your iPad, put it on the console, you'd start running. The video would literally adjust to your pace, but then, you know and the the the the pace, by the way, when the the treadmills got smarter, you didn't need the blue the the Foot Pod anymore. The the treadmill was the Foot Pod. Mhmm. So your pace on the treadmill would transmit to the iPad, which would adjust the video. Mhmm. But then as you approached, Heartbreak Hill or other terrain in the video, the app would send a signal down to the treadmill to adjust the incline accordingly. So you really got a true simulation. It was really neat. Mhmm. Then, you know, once that was done and perfected, which by the way and and I'm I'm saying this in, 60 seconds, but it was probably 3 years to get it all figured out. I would imagine. Yeah. Oh, it was terribly difficult to to to to figure it out, you know, and and have it look not, you know, like Charlie Chaplin or something like that. You know, it it needed to be smooth. So within our app, we created what we call a dynamic wave frame controller Mhmm. Which, I have 3 patents or had 3 patents on that, and that would basically allow the video to flow. So as you sped up or slowed down, it wouldn't stutter if you were going too slow or look choppy if you were going too fast. It actually flowed. Very, very cool. And so, once we figured that out, then we're filming different locations, scenic locations, popular routes. Charles River in Boston is a great route. A lot of people who went to school here are familiar with it. Central Park in New York was another great one of the Washington Mall in in DC. But then then, a a good friend of mine, David McGillivray, is a race director for the Boston Marathon. He said, you know, that you should do this with some race courses, because if you did it with race courses, it would be a great way for runners to be able to train before the race. And I'm like, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So, went up and we filmed I filmed 2 courses, the, Joan Benoit Samuelson's TD Beach to Beacon 10 k up in Maine and that the, ASICS found the road race down on Cape Cod. And filmed those. And it was it was really good. I mean, we got to see the courses and everything, but it wasn't the exact same as race day. So I had gone back to Dave and I said, Dave, you know, it's pretty good. It would do the job for training, but it would be really neat if it was done on race day. I don't know how we can do that. And Dave said, but, boy, I happen to know the race director, which was Dave. Yeah. So, you know, as luck would have it, we were able to go out there on race day and film the course. And, I had mentioned about filming and smoothness earlier, coming back full circle on that. The way that I had filmed at the time was I actually, bought this rig called a Steadicam. Okay? That's this rig that you wear in your body. Mhmm. By the way, this is like a dozen years ago before. I mean, now these GoPros are amazing. I mean, they can you know, you can do whatever you want, and they're nice and smooth. But this is before all of that. Mhmm. So I would film with a Steadicam, which was this rig that I'd wear on my body with this camera, and 4 k was a big breakthrough, by the way, back then too. These cameras, I think I had a red red one, which is, like, $22,000 or something crazy. I have a GoPro. In any event, so I was the the problem with the Steadicam was the thing weighs about £25, and how do you go at a steady state, you know, with this big rig? So I'm like, well, I don't know. I'm a Segway. So I got a Segway, and no sooner did I do that than I realized, well, I can't steer the Segway and operate the camera at the same time. So I actually invented a piece to allow me to steer the Segway with my knees so that I could operate the camera. It was literally problem. Solution. Again, it's an entrepreneurial thing or a problems thing, you know, inventor thing, whatever you wanna call it. Mhmm. You know, encounter a problem and, well, how do we solve it? And, you know, now this hands free piece that I created for the the segue, I you know, my friend said, well, you should sell that. I'm like, no. No. No. That's a that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. It's if you're doing it right, it's very dangerous. But we managed to figure it all out. And, you know, fast forward to today, fortunately, all you need now is a baby stroller and a selfie stick and a GoPro, you know, for the same thing. Right. The technology is amazing. It's amazing how fast things have iterated. So, so, yeah, where we are now at this point is able to create different race courses on race day in partnership with these races. Mhmm. Now when I had approached a lot of them back in the day, you know, 2013, 2014, whatever Mhmm. They were intrigued. You know? Right. And and and they said, this is pretty interesting. And, you know, and then, you know, a couple of them said, well, we have a virtual race, you know. And I said, well, this isn't that, you know. I mean, virtual races, you know, you you run around your neighborhood and you collect your metal when you're done, but there's no real shared experience with the masses. And I mean, you know, you're putting your high school track. What does that have to do with somebody who's running up the side of a mountain? You know? I mean, it's it's Right. They're running 10 k's, but they're completely unrelated. So what we wanted to do was we wanted to bring the actual course, bring the race to the runner. Mhmm. So in any event, while the races were intrigued, they really didn't know if there was a real value add opportunity there and then came COVID. And my phone started ringing off the hook, as you would imagine. And and the problem, unfortunately, was that, you know, we need to do this on race day in order to capture the actual experience. And because every race in the world was canceled Right. Now it kinda had me saying, well, boy, had you contacted me 3 years ago, then, you know, now we would be able to, you know, make this all work and everything. And, you know, it it was what it was. So, anyway, where we are now post COVID is the idea and the opportunity is, you know, it's in the minds of all the race directors now. They can understand it, they can see it. But that's not just, that's not the complete solution. This requires equipment, you know, whether it's a a treadmill or a spin bike or a rowing machine. You know, it it requires that in order to be to be able to to to work completely. So I reached out to dozens of different cardio equipment manufacturers. And, again, the same thing. While the race directors now were on board, the equipment manufacturers, the product managers, like, well, you know, it seems like a good idea, but then I'm like, oh my gosh. What what do I do here? So so here we are at this point, and, what's very exciting now is that the Paris Olympics, Mhmm. In in in less than 2 months on August 10th, they're gonna be having their marathon pour tour and their in 10 k. So they're actually gonna be having a marathon, and they I believe they wanna go for a Guinness Book of World Records. They wanna have over a 1000000 people take part in this event. It's gonna be the 1st mass participation event of the modern Olympics. Oh. Yeah. I mean, it's gonna basically herald in the introduction of physically interactive television. Now Right. Back in 1936, that was the first television broadcast was the Olympic Games. Yeah. In 2024, we wanna have this herald in in revolutionize the introduction of physically interactive television. Mhmm. So what they're going to do on August 10th, they're going to have a 10 ks for folks who can't complete a full marathon, but they're also going to have the marathon porteuse allowing people from around the world to take part in this event. They're gonna have, I think, about 50,000 people at the Champ de l'Eyes on the actual Olympic course, prepares 24. They're gonna actually run on the Olympic course. But in conjunction with that live event, they wanna have people from around the world simultaneously experiencing the same thing on their treadmills at home, which is incredibly neat. It's it's really, really exciting. And this isn't again, it's not a virtual I I don't know if they have a virtual option, but what we're trying to do here is we wanna bring the streets of Paris, this beautiful city, right into the living room. Right. And it's something where you actually can be running by and seeing these landmarks and feeling the hills. It would give people an opportunity to know what the Olympic marathoners are going to be experiencing as well. Yeah. So it's it's it's it's very exciting times. No. [Kamal Datta] That's good to know. And I really appreciate you actually covering, you know, founding Outside Interactive, the challenges you face, and how you overcome those challenges one after another with solutions as an entrepreneur would do, and also bringing to the current state and what's look forward to. Now if you take a step back, I want to, emphasize one of the couple of the things that you mentioned with the current state is that the product name is called the virtual runner. It's my understanding. And if I'm to paint the picture for our audience, right, which is, a lot of runners. Right? I know I'm in Boston. I ran Boston in 2018, the worst years to run. Oh, yeah. And I I I train at the Heartbreak Hill, the the running company. So I used to go in Newton and and run the loop. So it was kind of the part of the loop I trained over time. Right. I know the pain people go to, especially in Boston winter, because some of the weekends, even if you want to, you don't want to take the risk. Like, it's 2 foot of snow, 3 foot of snow. It's, you know, minus 10 below freezing. It's, like, can be not ideal or optimal in any sense to run. Right. Sure. And at the same time, if you want to run indoors, as you mentioned, after 12 miles, you hit the wall. Yeah. So you have that challenge. And most of the runners I know not a big fan of running indoors. Right. You are solving actually both the problems with this. You are simulating a course and indoors where you can experience actual race course on the indoor environment. You take away all the, like, folks I know, who are training for Fall runs now, you know, struggling to train in this hot weather. Right? Right. Especially in south south of the states. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. So you're solving that both into this one solution where, hey. I can be indoor in whatever environment, ideal environment, no hot or cold, and I can set it up. And I can simulate the course in front of me and run the course, and I'm actually running the actual course that I'm going to race on the race day, which is a win win with a lot of ways for the runners and take away all those variables of extreme weathers that people may have to go through, which I think is a very fascinating idea. And then the challenges you went through, to get to this state today, which is really fascinating. I'm just curious to see how you have seen the response from the runner community as such on on the virtual running product. [Gary McNamee] Well, it's interesting because back when I I started the company, I actually, you know, started in 2010, but I spent about a year doing research. Mhmm. You know, I had sold my my my second company, and, I was a little burnt out. I had I had been working at my second company for 15 years, which was, online bill pay payments, and completely unrelated. But, you know, I I was pretty burnt out at that point. And actually, what I ended up doing is I actually coached high school track and cross country Oh, you did? For about four and a half years. Okay. You know, I I've always been a runner of, you know, in one capacity or another. I'm more of a relegated to a jogger these days, but in any event, I love the sport, and I I, you know, was able to I had the good fortune of being able to work with a number of different high school kids at Stoughton High School. I was assistant coach there for a long time. And when I came up with the idea actually, all the kids were, oh, coach, you have to do this. You have to do this. This is a great idea. So, you know, I originally named the product virtual runner, and my my my word was hijacked. Because, you know, everybody's everything is virtual now, and and and so but back then, it wasn't, you know, virtual wasn't really that that well known a term, in 2010. And so I'm like, I'll call it virtual runner. And and so then along come the virtual races, and it just kinda really confused issues. So what we've created, we call it now, we call it a simulation, you know. Okay. You know, so if you see, Topgolf, which is a great product in the golfing world, that's a simulation. You can actually experience experience different, you know, PGA courses and, and the such. Well, this is the exact same concept, but it's not that ex it's not as expensive. Frankly, you don't have to go to, you know, an outside location. The idea is to bring this right to your treadmill, and it'll work with any treadmill, which is another very cool thing. Now in various capacities, but the the newer treadmills that are Bluetooth capable, they are the the most, interactive and the most immersive and and the such. So, where we are like I said, where we are at this stage of the game is, I was early. You know? I mean, it's just that's probably the first thing I should mention is when I I started this, I figured you know, I told my wife, it'll probably be 2 or 3 years before it gets traction. And in my mind, I'm thinking probably, like, more like 3 or 4 years. Well, here we are 14 years later. Right. Right. And and the thing is is you don't make that kind of a commitment and an investment and and and the such unless you have a, a pretty, you know, certain, conviction that this is going to happen. I've always been very, very fortunate that I've had a very good crystal ball. So but the the the it's a dual edge. It's a 2 sided coin here where I can see what's around the curve. What I can't see is how long the curve is. I see. So in in this instance, you know, here we are 14 years later, and, you know, now we have the Paris Olympics that they're gonna be adopting this and offering this to the world. Mhmm. And, I am very hopeful, confident, cautiously optimistic that that this is going to be the tipping point. And here's the reason why. Mhmm. One of my my main driving forces behind, you know, doing this and and and working on this for so so long. Mhmm. I come back to Dave McGilvray, you know, from the Boston Marathon, and and he's a pretty much a a legend in the running Absolutely. Yep. Well, Dave was one of the ones who well, he may not have invented it, but he certainly brought it out to the fore of combining, charity with endurance events. Back in 1978, Dave ran across the country. To raise money for the Jimmy Fund. And that really, I believe, is what launched the idea of charity events tied to endurance events. Okay. And, you know, Dave has been a very, very big proponent. And and I would say, my gosh, 95% of all the races out there, if they're not a race that was created for a charity, whether it's cancer or what have you Right. There's certainly charity components in every race out there. Absolutely. Yep. That that allow you to be part of an event to raise funds. Well, look at what we're doing. I mean, let me let me present it another way. How many people attend the Super Bowl every year? 70,000? Yep. How many people are at home watching it on television? A 100 and 3,000,000? Yeah. There's our audience. Right? So you've got 70,000 people that are actually at the, the the the the Super Bowl, but there's a 123,000,000 that are at home. Well, think of it this way. Let me put it another way. 840,000 people applied to be part of the London marathon in 2025. [Kamal Datta] I was one of them. Yes. Sure. Did you bring it in? No. I did not. 50,000 made it in. Yes. Yeah. [Gary McNamee] That means that 790,000 people, they're kind of out of luck. Yeah. Now would you rather be on the 50 yard line for the Super Bowl versus home watching it on television? Of course, you would. Right. But Right. Either it sells out, it's too expensive, or it's just not practical. So what we wanna be able to do is we wanna be able to allow people from around the world to be part of these endurance events. Whether it's a marathon right down to your local turkey truck 5 k on thanksgiving. I mean, what if you're, you're you're you're in the military, you're deployed, and you're homesick. Here's an opportunity Right. To see all the landmarks and experience the sounds and the sights and the the the and feel your your your course in your hometown turkey trot on Thanksgiving when you're half a world away. Right. This is literally physically interactive television. Now I'm starting with endurance events because frankly, there's a lot of money to be made. And there's also an opportunity for charity events to raise funds in an entirely new way. This isn't this is a frictionless offering. In other words, it's not a zero sum game. For us to win, for the races to win Yeah. Yeah. Others don't have to lose. Yeah. Those 840,000 people, the 790,000 people that are out of luck, if we can provide this as a solution to them, I'm not naturally, not everyone wants to take advantage of it, but, you know, naturally, there could be. Yeah. You know? And and the idea behind this is let them experience this or maybe they wanna dip their toe. You know, I've always wanted to run that race, but I'm not entirely sure. Well, let me let me try the simulated event and see what that does. Yeah. Yeah. What does this do for the race director? Well, every race director looks at their event as the Mona Lisa. Absolutely. Yeah. All we're doing is we're giving them a pallet and a brush. Yeah. And we're giving them the platform. Okay? Right. So the the goal behind what we're doing is and I mentioned about the baby jogger and the GoPro. Well, you know, you don't have to be Steven Spielberg to to to create this, but what we are doing is creating a way for these races to show off their race. I mean Right. You can create this on race day. You can film your own course, upload it to the platform, and then share it with the world. And by the way, you can have official paid remote participation. So somebody who's doing, you know, running a 5 k in, you know, where did you say you lived? I'm in next north of Boston, Winchester. Yeah. So you're in north of Boston. So, you know, a 5 k up north of Boston and, you know, somebody's in Los Angeles, they actually can experience this event. They can get their finishers medal. They can be part of the official, results. Mhmm. And they have an opportunity to dip their toe before their their the the live event the next time around. Yeah. Yeah. Now and and this by the way, endurance events is a great opportunity, but it just starts here. I mean, there's departments of tourism. Do I wanna go to Sydney, Australia? Do I wanna go to Milan next year? I don't know. Let's take a virtual walk, run, ride, or row through both. Yeah. And let's experience them and see. And by the way, it now becomes up to the race director to make that video production as good as they can because that's an opportunity to advertise your event for future live participation. Yeah. And while we're on the topic of advertising, we also have in video advertising capability as well. This is an idiot. Yeah. So as you you you you summit Heartbreak Hill, congratulations, you did it. You're running along 20% off your next pair of Adidas. Use this QR code. Right. So it's and it's a noninvasive ad that's in the video as you're experiencing it. And by the way, when somebody's on a treadmill running, you've got a 100% of their attention because they're not looking to the left or their right. They're looking right at your logo. Right. You can see there's there's tremendous potential here, not only for the race, but for the charities. And by the way, all the vendors, the t shirt manufacturers, the the finishers metal companies. Yeah. Yeah. And and and we can even go one step further. Mhmm. Of clubs. Okay? So what's to limit this to being done in someone's living room? Well, we can also have an opportunity to bring this into health clubs, where health clubs now have an opportunity, and they would be able to be receive a small portion of the entry fee as well. So it's a revenue generator for the health clubs as well. I mean, it goes on and on and on, but it has to start some. And that's that's kinda where we are at this point. No. That is true. Because I know, although a lot of races offer the virtual run options too, because that would be a good one because they can add, and and in addition to the virtual run, they can add it that, hey. You can actually run on the simulated course when you're doing the virtual run. For example, you know, I'm I put my name for the lottery for the New York City virtual run that can happen the same week of the New York City marathon in November 1st week. Now I will run somewhere around here in in Boston. Right? It's no way close to actually experiencing what New York City Marathon would look like. But if New York City Marathon organizers, the race track record, offer the same to the virtual runners, the same, like, hey. If you're running indoors, you can simulate the race, and you can experience as close as as you are running the New York City marathon course, which is a lot of value add for the runners because they are feel like they're part of it and more connected versus they're running in their own town somewhere 26.2 miles. [Kamal Datta] It it would be a different experience altogether. Yeah. I I do totally see it. You mentioned a couple of times that you are, you know, for the health clubs, the race directors. You talk about partnerships with the equipment companies. Right? So if a runner is looking, I know there are tons of equipments available in the market. If someone wants to experience what the simulator does them for race, like, what kind of equipments you're looking at? Well, yeah, it's very interesting that you say that. And, I I one of the companies that I've been really trying to reach out to is Peloton. [Gary McNamee] Okay. Outside Interactive is trying to reach out to Peloton Interactive. Okay. You know, I've I've I've said with Outside Interactive, I came up with the name because I thought it was all encompassing. I had originally was thinking about running related ideas and names. But then I'm like, well, why limit it to just running Because this can also work for rowing. It'll work for spinning. It'll work for cycling, you know, so there's other areas. So I'm like, well, outside seems more of an all encompassing name. So outside interactive, it was. So, incorporated that in in, 2011, like I said. But, in any event, the the the the idea of what we're trying to do here is to have a a company that we can partner with, that we can focus with, that could be able to present this, a company with a name. The one thing about Outside Interactive about me, I've been doing this for a very long time, but, you know, I bootstrapped the company. Mhmm. You know, I I've got a great locate I got a great story here. You know what I mean? You know, I seriously. I mean, you know, the the whole idea came about by the way, my commitment to this story and this idea and this company, happened literally at mile 21 of the Boston marathon. Oh, I've that did. Okay. Yeah. I mean, without getting too much, I was trying to break 3 hours at the race, and, I got to mile 21. I just stopped to the top of Heartbreak Hill and it wasn't looking good. Yeah. So generally around mile 21 is when all the negotiations with the higher power take place, you know? It does. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll be a better person. I'll do this. I'll I'll do this. I'll not do this. And for me, it was, okay. Well, I'll commit to to to to this company if I can reach my goal, and I did. And so, you know, at that point, I'm like, well, let's let's see what I can do about this. And, you know, about 6 months into it, I realized this is gonna be really hard. It was. But, again, I think that the benefit for and again, I I come back to something greater than myself. The charity component of this is going to be very, very significant. But I I look at, you know, having a partner that we can, you know, present this to everybody with and and and Peloton Interactive. Peloton is the company that I think would be a a a fantastic partner for us in this endeavor. I hope that they they can see it as such as well. But And if you look at today, there are some equipments that offers the simulation today, right, or can be added? Yeah. Yes. There's there's, many, many, I my outside Interactive, there's another company in in in Paris, actually, called Kinomap that does, does what what would I I actually worked with them for a little bit over a year. Oh, okay. And, they I I I don't think there's they were as much focused on the racing component of it at at that point. But one of the benefits that they do do have is, I look at, you know, I look at them as like a Microsoft, many, many, many different equipment manufacturers. Like Microsoft works with many PC manufacturers. But my thought, my focus, my goal would be to be work with Apple. And, you know, I I I basically look at, you know, being able to hone in and and and and target, you know, that type of a solution. And and and in this space, in the fitness equipment space, Peloton is the apple of the space. Right. And so it would make sense to be able to work with them in this capacity. So Right. [Kamal Datta] I'll switch the gear a little bit, in terms of to get a sense on on your entrepreneurial journey, because I know you had 2 successful companies before you even conceptualize outside interactive. Yes. I'm just curious to see how that experience of running 2 company and exiting that and then starting it paved the way for running this company 14 years. And you look like a a kid in a candy candy store. Right? Could you I can see you that's so excited about the future of where I was interacting with is going. I'm just curious. How how do you keep it? Like, how does it shaped you? Like, how excited you are about this your new baby that is also interactive with 14 year old baby as maybe probably in day 1. [Gary McNamee] Well, 3 words. Discipline, patience, and humility. Okay. You know, with my second company, it's very good example, developed online bill pay in 1993. Mhmm. Oh, wow. Now I'm dating myself here. You know, this was at the dawn of the Internet. And when I had first developed this, everybody was just saying you're nuts. I mean, the Internet is years years away, if ever, to be able to, do online commerce. And I mean, this this is laughable now, but back in back then, it wasn't. It was, you know, people were looking at it as a, you know, well, this this too shall pass, you know, as a fad. Mhmm. And so, you know, as a a good example from the crystal ball standpoint is I realized I said, I think this Internet thing's gonna have some legs. So I, I started to gobble up some domain names, And, and one of the, the better ones that I, I got was, ach.com. Ah, okay. Yeah. In the payment space, ACH stands for automated clearing house. And, you know, when I started thinking about the domain names, you know, I went to the obvious ones. Beer.com is a good example. But there were other people out there that had the same idea. Uh-huh. But when you got into an industry specific area, like payments or financial services or whatever, they weren't taken. So ACH at that point, I actually had acquired it from a guy, for a few $100 who had an air conditioning and heating company. So, I mean, so I we literally went up to, a shady divey bar in Lowell, Massachusetts and did the deal. And, you know, wrote it wrote him a check, and he signed it over, and we Network Solutions and for $35. And, I sold it for 6 figures when I sold my company. I sold it Oh, wow. I sold my company in 2007 to my employees, but I kept the domain names and I sold those separately. But, yeah, ach.compositivepay.com, electronicpayments.com. And there were a few others in there, but, but again, it's a good example of, of, you know, maybe seeing ahead of the curve that others didn't. And, and with the, the advocate advocacy of of of electronic payments and the such, again, being very early on, it was literally establishing a beachhead clawing and then holding on and waiting for the world to catch up. Outside interactive is the quintessential example of that, of of establishing a beachhead, holding on, and just waiting for the world to catch up. And and the world is finally catching up. I mean, when, you know, I started the company and Peloton came along a few years later, and I'm like, oh, this is a good thing. Right. You know, I saw their cat their meteoric rise. It was incredible. Mhmm. And, you know, and and and kudos to to to the founder, John Foley. You know, one of the things that he did that I could never do, he got rejected by over 400 venture capitalists. I mean, can you imagine the type of resolve that that takes? I mean, I'm a persistent guy. I'm stubborn, and I've got patience and discipline, but I don't know that I could handle this. 400 rejections. Yeah. Yeah. It will He deserves different material. Yeah. Yeah. He deserves tremendous credit for having the the fortitude to be able to withstand that. And look what he created. You know? So, you know, in terms of where I am and what I've done, I knew that I was early when I had come up with this. Okay. But I also knew, you know, I I I also think I'm I feel like I was put here to do this. I know that sounds a little unusual, but I mean, think if I came up with this same idea and I lived in Billings, Montana. No offense to Billings, Montana. But it's not known for its running prowess. Right. Right. Right. You know what I mean? I grew up a runner. I mean, all the people who I idolized as a kid, I now am friendly with, which is a tremendous ancillary benefit from this company. Mhmm. And, you know, so I I I I just figured that, you know, if I continue to work on this and perfect it and everything, at some stage of the game, various people are gonna have their moments, and they're gonna see the value of what we've created, what I've created. And, you know, it's starting to happen now. And the the fact that the Paris Olympics are gonna be utilizing this and offering this. I think this is gonna give the world you know, give it the exposure that has been lacking. We've been around for a while, you know, but been very, very easy to miss, you know, because I bootstrapped. So, you know, having having an oasis in the desert is wonderful, but not so much if nobody knows you're there. You know? So So how how was the experience actually having your product used at Paris Olympics? It must be a I don't know. [Kamal Datta] The process you went through get to there. There are some moments, oh, shit moments. Well, actually, they're gonna be incorporating Keyno maps technology. Okay. Okay. [Gary McNamee] Yeah. I mean, you know, again, when I was on board with them, you know, I had nothing to do with the Paris. I I knew some of the folks at the, you know, in in in at the right levels, if you will, but this isn't gonna be incorporating KinoMaz technology, and kudos to them. I mean, you know, it's it's basically, we're the only 2 games, you know, around. And, you know, it probably also didn't hurt that it's the Paris Olympics and Keynote Maps headquarters is in Paris. In Paris? Okay. Okay. That probably helps a little bit. But in any event, they have great technology as well. I I wish them well. I think that they, I think that they have a very, very bright future. I mean, well, I think we both do, frankly, because Right. You know, this is where it's all headed. And, you know, it might not have been so obvious back in 2011, but it's getting a heck of a lot more obvious now. It's similar to 1993 and talking about online bill pay and having everybody kind of tilt their head at me when I talk about Internet Yeah. Yeah. Online commerce. Same concept. Yeah. Now as you talk to, the ecosystem, especially in the running side, right, and endurance sports, you are talking to, you know, race directors, organizers. Obviously, they are connected to the athlete community being an athlete yourself, a runner yourself. You're also, talking to the ecosystem of the devices company, so the Yes. Equipment's company. And you also seen what pandemic does to this race in the last couple of years. Right. Like, where do you see it, Gary? How do you see the the industry is heading? Let's start maybe talking about the virtual racing itself. Which direction it's heading? What what what is your understanding? I mean, you know, I look at this as I this can be to television what television was to radio. I see. I see. And that's the approach. I mean, if you wanna get futuristic about it, this is the helodeck version 1 point o. I mean, it has to start somewhere. Right. Right. And and what I've created, you know, naturally, you're gonna get developers. You're gonna get people videographers. You're gonna get, you know, equipment manufacturers. They're all gonna come in and do a heck of a lot better job than I did, but I got them at the table. That's my goal, is to get these people from these these these disparate, you know, industries Mhmm. At the same table and say, guys, look at this. You know? Very similar to what I had done with, the software in my second company. I developed the software for, you know, laser check printing, starting out, and then working on electronic payments. And at some point, I had licensed enough software that I could hire developers, and they took a look at my stuff saying, this is lousy. And I'm like, yeah. But I put enough I made enough money to hire you. Now go build it and make it better. And that's kind of what I'm doing here. I mean, I'm I'm, you know, I'm I'm looking to be able to introduce the concept. I'm not trying to sell anybody. And there's a big difference between explaining and convincing. Uh-huh. And what I'm trying to do is explain. I'm not trying to convince. I mean, that's why from the money standpoint and investors and everything, you know, that was a a kind of a a nonstarter for me because first off, I knew I was early. Okay? That's great. Yeah. You know, and and you've gotta remember, you know, people want us to well, what's your revenue? What's, you know, this this this and this? And I'm like, you know, we're not there yet. Right. Right. And and but you know what? Now we are. Mhmm. And and now it's not you know, and and and the thing that's exciting for me is that, you know, in in less than 60 days and this is why I'm trying to reach out to all of the people who I've spoken with over the years. Mhmm. Because I'm like, look, guys. On August 10th, a lot of stuff is gonna go down. Now you can start to scramble with everybody else on August 10th Right. Or you can start trying to be prepared for what's gonna happen on August 10th. Because things are gonna change. It's gonna be I mean, you know, it it it's going to and it it's not gonna be all at once because, you know, it's it's a new concept and everything, but it's gonna introduce this to a much greater audience than I've ever been able to do. Right. [Kamal Datta] Right. So No. That's great. Now, it was great having you on the pod, Gary. I really enjoyed our conversation, and, I I'm excited which direction outside interactive is going. I'm sure August 10th will play a key role to educating, you know, the whole ecosystem, like the runners, the organizers, you know, who supports them as well in the community. So wish you all the best, and and and thank you once again for being on the pod. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate your time.