[Dave McGillivray] That these kids know they're sick, but they need help, but they're determined to live. And I just thought, well, you know, the battle that I was about to fight by running over five and a half million footsteps across America was in no way as difficult as the battle that these kids are fighting for their own life. So I I just having met the kids, I just knew that when when times are gonna be tough, we'll go run into the desert a 20 degrees, running over the Rocky Mountains, 14 Thousand feet in elevation. I would just think back to them and thinking, you know, look what they're going through. And what I'm going through is obviously nothing in comparison and put your big boy pants on and keep going and keep going and keep going. And and I did, and I finished on 08/29/1978 in Fenway Park. [Kamal Datta] Hey, everyone. Welcome to fundraising in twenty six point two part. In this next episode, I sit down with running legend, Dave McDelivery. Dave is a pioneer in charity running. We cover grounds for both charity runners as well as nonprofits who wants to be a charity partner for some of the iconic races like Boston Marathon. So either you are a charity runner who is fundraising for your next race or a nonprofit who wants to be a charity partner for some of the iconic races, it this conversation is filled with some practical tips. I hope you enjoy it. I'm your host, Kamal Datta. Thanks for listening. Welcome, Dave, to this part. I'm really excited to have you here today. [Dave McGillivray] Hey. Good to join you again very much. I appreciate it. [Kamal Datta] Yeah. And I was listening to, a recent part that you did, about your upcoming Ironman. Is it the next race you're training for? Yeah. Yeah. [Dave McGillivray] This will be my tenth, Kona Hawaii Ironman World Championship participation. I did my first one in 1980. Oh, wow. It was the third year of the race. There were only a hundred and eight of us in the race. Mhmm. I ended up finishing fourteenth overall, and then I went back and did it in 1983, '80 '4, '80 '5, '80 '6, '80 '7, '80 '8, and '89. Uh-huh. So I did eight times in the eighties, and then I didn't go back again for twenty five years in lockdown in 02/2014 and did it then. And now it's been ten years since then. And I just turned 70 a few weeks ago, and I thought, well, what do I want for my birthday? I'll give myself a present. Go kill yourself at Ironwood. Well, brilliant. Happy birthday, Dave. Thank you. So so yeah. So in another month and a little bit, I'll be doing my tenth. Oh, wow. That's a big number and also on your seventieth birthday after taking almost a ten year break. [Kamal Datta] So that's pretty amazing. Yeah. Is is that the cadence or twenty fourteen means you're 60 that time? So, basically, you decide to kill yourself when you're a big number. Yes. [Dave McGillivray] Yeah. Yeah. I just you know, I always like to challenge myself and, and, you know, it's always good to have a target or have a magnet, you know, to go after to sort of incentivize you to get out of bed and get the work done. So I wouldn't be doing all this swimming and biking that I'm currently doing if I didn't have that as a goal. So it's really gotten me into pretty good shape for a 70 year old at this stage. So I'm happy that, I'm doing it, but I'll also be glad when it's when it's done. No. All the very best, Dave. Thank you. Now for our discussion today, I want to take you back in 1978, the race that you did from Medford, Oregon to Medford, Mass. [Kamal Datta] That's your one of the iconic races of 3,400 plus miles that you did. One of the event also did that you ran that or you did that event to raise fund for Jimmy Fund. I'll be curious, like, first of all, what did you why did you take on such an, you know, ginormous task? And second thought, you know, how did you associate yourself with GMB fund or fundraising in general Yeah. With that major race Well, no. [Dave McGillivray]Task. You know, always wanting to be a an athlete. My whole life, I've challenged myself. You know, I once went after the Guinness Book of Records for sit ups and push ups. And just as a little kid, I was just driven to achieve, you know, especially being small in stature. There weren't a lot of opportunities for me to obviously play professional sports or Mhmm. You know, compete with the big boys. So I just set personal individual challenges. And I had, heard about a friend of mine who had biked across the country, and I thought that was pretty amazing at the time. But then I said, well, I'm not a biker. I'm a runner. If he can bike across, I can run across. Mhmm. Well, that's kind of a idiotic comparison. Biking and run different. But I said, no. I'm gonna, research this a little bit and and make a commitment and see if I can do it. And so as I was planning it and training for it, just this epiphany occurred that maybe I need a greater purpose to get through this. How am I how am I sure that I'm gonna be able to run 45, 50 miles a day every day without a day off and all kinds of conditions and all kinds of terrain as a 23 year old when I've never done anything even remotely like this. Uh-huh. And I said maybe there needs to be a a a greater purpose. And I was in my office at the time. I was an actuary, and I was, looking I was in the John Hancock Tower in Boston, and I looked out the window. I saw Fenway Park, which is where I wanted to play second base for the Boston Red Sox. Uh-huh. Now I've got a chance to do that. But I saw a sign out in right field, and the sign said, help make a dream come true. Support the Jimmy Fund. I wasn't really sure what the Jimmy Fund was all about. So I picked up the phone and called and guy by the name of Ken Coleman and said, Ken was the voice of the Boston Red Sox ironically, but also the executive director of the Jimmy Fund. Mhmm. I said, hi, mister Coleman. My name is Dave, and I wanna run across the country for the Jimmy Fund. Well, after he picked himself up off the floor. Yeah. He says, come on in and meet with me. And I did, and we cut the deal. Then he said the Red Sox will support you, and the Jimmy Fund will support you. And then I went and I visited the kids in the Jimmy Fund clinic. Mhmm. And, I saw a sign in the clinic, and a sign said, God made only so many perfect hits. The rest of them have hair on it. And it just struck me about the whole concept of resilience and determination and courage and guts. You know, that these kids know they're sick, but they need help, but they're determined to live. And I just thought, well, you know, the battle that I was about to fight by running over five and a half million footsteps across America was in no way as difficult as the battle that these kids are fighting for their own life. So I just having met the kids, I just knew that when when times are gonna be tough, go run into the desert a 20 degrees, running over the Rocky Mountains, 14 Thousand feet in elevation. I would just think back to them and thinking, you know, look what they're going through. And what I'm going through is obviously nothing in comparison and put your big boy pants on and keep going and keep going and keep going. And and I did, and I finished on 08/29/1978 in Fenway Park Mhmm. Where I wanted to play second base. But I wasn't gonna play in Fenway. I was gonna run-in Fenway. Yeah. So I ran into Fenway Park in front of 32,000 people. And they followed a Jimmy Fund night at Fenway, and hundreds of thousands of dollars were raised. And that just began my whole journey in terms of combining athleticism and event management with philanthropy. Mhmm. And pretty much everything I've done since then, I've done it, like I said, for a greater purpose. And, you know, collectively between what I've done personally and what I've done through my business Mhmm. And all the events that we've put on over the years easily have helped, not individually raise, but helped raise probably $3,400,000,000 for all kinds of different causes. Mhmm. So, yeah, then I it's been my whole life. I mean, I saw her in Runner's World magazine once a number of years ago that they said that that run-in '78 was the first time someone had combined running with raising money for cancer research and like that. Are they saying I'm a, like, a pioneer of combining, you know, endurance sports with fundraising, but no one really was doing it before then. So maybe without even knowing it, that was one of the one of the first times that, you know, it had been done, and look what's going on in the world today. [Kamal Datta] It's pretty amazing. Oh, it is. It is. And I I, you know, I think you are also the Jimmy Fund or Jimmy Award recipient as well because I think you are, over the years, contributed so much, through you, your personally, yourself and through your foundation and to the sports as well, the events you organize. So that's pretty amazing. So I was looking at kind of the history of the how the endurance sports and the charity events kinda married and have such amazing partnership today. And some of the things are, like, one of the earliest, maybe it's recorded, was in 1969, for a hunger walk that raised around 25,000. That was the first kinda recorded event where they raised fund. And I think it says in 1988, the leukemia and the lymphoma society lost the team in trading. I think it's still probably in a in act active and doing amazing things. But I think you well, you're run-in 1978. So it falls in the kind of the beginning of, like, how it got, you know, all started. Yeah. Did you like, what was the landscape that time? Did you know because you are involved in, you know, endurance sports and especially running. How was the landscape at that time, like, early eighties, late seventies? You know, when I right around that time, I mean, I ran across the country. And then when I finished, my then boss at the time said, hey. You're coming back to work tomorrow. I said, tomorrow? [Dave McGillivray]I just ran across a continent. I need I need a few days, you know, and a few days later, I got a termination letter. And I just ran across the country to raise money for sick kids, and I got fired. And when I think about it, it was the best thing that ever happened to me because it made me realize that maybe that wasn't the direction or the path that I wanted to take. Maybe I wanted to go in a different direction. So I opened up a athletic footwear and clothing store in my hometown, then I started putting on events to promote the store. And then I realized I like putting on events more than shoes on people's feet. Yeah. And people kept looking at me, like, with, you know, crossed eyes going, you really think you can earn a living putting on road races? Mhmm. If nobody was doing it then. I mean, it was a handful of races, and that's it. And most of them were being put on by just runners who just put on a race. It wasn't being done professionally, I guess you could say, at the time. Yeah. I said, well, I'm not just putting on a race. What do you mean? I said, well, in my mind, I'm helping to raise the level of self confidence and self esteem of tens of thousands of people in America because that's what these events do. Mhmm. And I said, watch. Over the next two years, you'll see. And I said, exactly what happened. As we started putting on these events, people started blocking to them. They wanted to challenge themselves, you know, and I I always get asked, what's the toughest part about running a marathon? I always say, well, for most people, the toughest part is signing the application. You know, making the commitment, and then you have to earn the right. Mhmm. You earn the right by doing the work and by training and putting in the time, and then you tow the line, you answer the gun, you run the course, you cross the finish line, you get a medal, and you go home, and magic happens. You feel good about yourself. Mhmm. And there's nothing more powerful in this world than to feel good about yourself because it's the foundation by which we accomplish everything in our lives. And I had a good sense for all of that back then. And so I started putting on more and more events, and then I started putting on events, you know, to raise money for charity. Mhmm. And then charities recognized how much money can be raised by events Mhmm. Simply because of the sheer numbers of participants Right. And this power in numbers. So if you get a thousand people all fundraising $500, raise a lot of money. Mhmm. So they kinda gave up their car washes and their cake sales, and they started, you know, coming up with putting on events themselves. And then they realized how difficult it is to put on an event. So then they started hiring me to put on their event while they focused on the fundraising effort. I see. So all this was happening pretty much in the in the nineteen eighties, you know, and it just grew and grew and grew. And today, I mean, just the Boston Marathon alone this past April, all the charities collectively raised over $70,000,000 Wow. You know, just by runners running in the marathon. Yeah. You know what it says. Right? That's true. [Kamal Datta] Yeah. It's pretty fascinating, and it's a phenomenon in fundraising, you know, combining, you know, fundraising with endurance sports. And I think there's a a connection between the event, the prestigiousness of the event, the distance of the event, the degree of difficulty of the event. I mean, the more difficult it is, the more fundraising people seem to do. Like, if you do a five k, you're not gonna raise a hundred thousand dollars. [Dave McGillivray] But if you do a marathon or an IMEI and distance race Yeah. You could get out there and people could be writing big checks, and you could end up raising $20.30, $50,000 for your charity. So and that's what's that's what's going on. Yeah. No. That's pretty amazing. I was, looking at kind of the adaption of the current state. Like, so as you mentioned, Boston Marathon raised 70,000,000 this year alone. Looks like Boston and the count may be off here and there, but, like, more than 60 charity partners. Chicago has 90 charity partners. New York City has 300 plus charity partners. And where London has more than 75% of the runners actually are raising fund, yeah, which is pretty phenomenal in number. The the adoption car, when do you think that it took off? Like, okay. You pioneered the way that, hey. We can combine that charity. Partners realized that this is a great way of raise fund. When do you think it took off? Like, early eighties, mid eighties? Well, I think it took off. It it happened not necessarily by design per se. What happens what happened was, at least in my personal experiences Yeah. As this endurance sports world just started really exploding, and more and more races, were created, and more and more races were selling out. Mhmm. Once races started selling out, meaning I wanna get in, but I can't because they've reached their self imposed sales size limit, then the value of that entry just skyrocketed. And Yes. They started getting the hint and realizing that. And they said, you know, if we tie a few charities into our event, then we can if we if we have a fill size limit of 5,000 runners Mhmm. We can set aside 500 of these numbers and fill the field size with 4,500 runners and then leave the last 500 and say to various charities, if you want these numbers, you can buy them from us, and then you can go out and get runners to run for you and raise whatever your minimum fundraising amounts might be. Mhmm. And then that whole concept just took off. And that's when when, you know, charities in particular and even the races, because the races, you know, they they want the goodwill associated with all that money being raised. The races themselves aren't necessarily writing a check. Right. If anything, the races are making more money because they're selling the bib number at a higher price to the charity knowing that the charity then is gonna go get five, ten times the amount in fundraising from a runner to run on their behalf in order to get the bib, which gets them into a race that they otherwise were closed out from. Right. So it's sort of a win win win in the sense that the race makes more money off the bib. The charities make huge amounts of money, and the runner gets into the race that they otherwise would not have been able to get in. Right. And in a sense, the runner's just paying the entry fee because the run is doing the work to go to family and friends to get them to give them the money. They're not if the minimum fundraising is $2,000, the run the run is not writing a check for $2,000. They're getting Right. 10 people to give them 200 each or 20 people to give them a hundred each or 50 people to give them $40 whatever whatever Yeah. Yeah. The balance out to be. So so it it it has absolutely taken off. Right. Taken off. And, you know, where we may once have had 30 charities, we have over 200 now. Mhmm. We could have a thousand. But Right. With Boston, it's different than the other races because with Boston, we have qualifying standards, and we don't want to, you know, sort of pilfer off of that. We wanna make sure that people who qualify for the race can get in as much as possible. So about 80% of the people who qualify get in, to Boston. About 80% of our field are people who qualify and 20%, special invitations, and the majority of those are, charity numbers. So there's a delicate balance between how many PPE you let in who qualify versus how many people get in on a invitational waiver. Other races like a a a London or whoever Mhmm. They can make their whole race a charity race if they want to. But I see. Not we can't we can't do that only because of what you know, we're about the pursuit of athletic excellence, number one. True. But then we have a charity component tied to that too. Yeah. Would you say, Dave, that the the iconicness or kinda the popularity of a race kinda play a significant role in terms of what charity partners they attract? Without a doubt. I mean Yeah. I mean, if the race is is popular Yeah. Then, again, most likely, it sells out. Because it sells out, you can set aside bibs for cherries. And Right. Why wouldn't I I'm sitting here right now. I have charity numbers to the Chicago marathon, my own foundation. Alright. And, probably, I get 20 dings a day on my computer saying a hundred dollars was just donated on behalf of Sally Smith running for your foundation in the Chicago marathon. I'm just sitting here, and the money's just Yeah. Yeah. Money's just rolling in. I don't know I don't know any of these people. And I'm saying, this is amazing. I'm I'm not doing anything, and I'm just watching my computer, and the money's just rolling in. You know? And and it's all good. But, why wouldn't any charity want that kinda Sure. Situation, you know, where they get the bibs, the tough part, if there is a tough part, depending on the race. Is just finding the runners to run for you and willing to commit to raise to minimum fundraising amount. Right. Right. So I have to talk a little bit on this because you are actually part of the whole ecosystem. First of all, you're a runner you raised. You have a foundation who raises runners that and you are also an event organizer through Dempsey Sports, and you're also the race director for Boston Marathon. So you see that end to end. If I take the example of a, say, a charity, like, what does it take to for them to associate themselves with an event like Boston or, say, fall out that you also, you know, produce? Well, every race has their own criteria. Sure. You know, a motto in my life is my it's my game, so it's my rules. That's how I Yeah. That's how I roll. It's my life. It's my rules. So if I wanna do this, then I do it. Mhmm. Well, same thing with races. It's your race. It's your rules. So Right. There's no standard. There's no one telling you have to do something a certain way. Mhmm. So every race is different in terms of how they may set up their nonprofit program. Mhmm. But the majority of them, you know, they have a mission statement. You know? They're all about something, whatever that something is. Generally speaking, it could be youth, health, fitness, you know, that kind that kind of path so that, you know, when they open up the whole charity program, you have to apply. So you have to fill out an application, say who you are, or you've been a a nonprofit, what your mission is, what would you do what are you gonna do with the money that you raise? The list goes on and on and on. Mhmm. And then they apply, and then there's a committee that, you know, obviously, goes through all the applications and determines which charities they feel, most align themselves with your mission. And then Mhmm. They select so many, and they have to, unfortunately, turn away a whole a whole bunch. Mhmm. That that's how it generally, that's how it works. I mean, sometimes it could be a lottery. Okay. Sometimes it could be charities whose commit to raising a certain amount of money because, again, the race wants to show that the community and the world that their race was partially responsible for millions of dollars being raised for worthy causes. Makes sense. So everyone has their different policies and rules. Yeah. And then, Dave, I'm not sure, you know, if you're able to share any numbers or not. The raise beeps that a charity partner gets, is that based on the charity themselves? So, like, for example, say, American Red Cross is having thousand beeps they got versus another charity got hundred. Like, how does that happen if you look at That's a good question. And, again, every race is different. Right. Some races, you know, because they only have a certain number allotted or available. Right? Each race. Decide. If you have 10,000 people in your race, you may say, we're only making 3,000 available for charity fundraising of the 10. The other seven thousand first come first serve, we can't require everyone in the race to be raising money, or a lot of people don't have the connections, the contacts, the networking that other people do, so it would be hard for them to fundraise. Mhmm. You know? Or they they've been fundraising for races all year. You can only go to the well so many times. So but each race sets a certain percentage of their overall number of bibs for maybe fundraising purposes for charitable purposes. Mhmm. And then I guess it also depends on how many apply, how many charities apply. So if you have 2,000 bibs available and, you know, a hundred charities apply Mhmm. Then that's only, on average, 20 per charity, 20 bibs per charity. But, you know, some you may wanna give more to and others you may wanna give less to just depending on your own in, you know, race criteria. You know? I see. Yeah. I mean, because, again, the race wants to show the highest fundraising totals possible. So if you give 20 numbers to a really small charity and they only raise $10,000 versus give it to a a more robust charity, and they were able to raise a hundred thousand dollars. Mhmm. I mean, as a race, you may wanna choose that charity over a small one. Although, another case could be made that, you know, 10,000 or $20,000 for a small charity is a lot of money. A hundred thousand dollars for a big charity may be a a drop in the bucket too. Right? True. True. Yeah. That's why, you know, this again, everyone's different. There's no standard. Everyone has their own reasons for deciding. It it could be relationships. Maybe the race has a good relationship with a specific charity, and they got 10 numbers and the charity comes back and said, hey. We sold those 10 numbers in a in a nanosecond. Can we have five more? And they may say, yes. Yeah. We'll we'll send you five more. And they'll or they'll say, no. We we don't have anymore. You know? Okay. So it's all it's all evolutionary too. It you know, it's it's because it's become so popular now Mhmm. The way these charity programs work keeps changing over the years because the demand keeps growing and all that kind of thing. So, yeah, it just remains to be seen what it might look like even five years from now. Interesting. If I look at it from, as you are running, Finish Strong Foundation, I mentioned that you have a charity base for the Chicago that you're running. And if you're wearing the hat of the founder of Finish Strong, how does a charity maybe an approach putting a minimum fundraising? Like, is there a map there? Or Well, I guess it depends. Yeah. I think it depends on what you're giving back in return too. Okay. Charities, it's just a flat, like, business deal. You know, the fundraising is $200. You get the bib. Good luck. See you later. Goodbye. Mhmm. I see. Might say, hey. We have a coach who can help train you. Yeah. We have workouts every week if you're local and you're not all over the country. We get together on Saturday mornings at 08:00, and we train on the course. We do this. We do that. Mhmm. They may have, you know, other types of, you know, merchandise, you know, given to, you know, singlets and warm ups and hats and gloves and this, that, and the other thing. They may have sponsors of their charity programs, so the runners get the benefit of sponsor merchandise. Mhmm. They may get discount, opportunities at retail stores. I see. So it all depends on the package that the charity puts together to offer to a a team member. And then the more robust the package, maybe the more they can justify asking as a minimum. Mhmm. But I'll tell you, it's going up and up and up. I mean, most major marathons now, it's between 5 and $10,000. Yeah. Yeah. Going even north of that. And, you know, people are more than happy to run for a charity to get into a race. But when they're asked, oh, but oh, by the way, you're gonna raise $10,000. They're like, I can't raise $10,000. I mean, I don't have a lot of high rolling friends that are multimillionaires. I just got my neighbors and a couple of cats and dogs, you know. And so I I mean, I can maybe raise $300, but I can't raise, you know, 5,000 or 10,000. So, unfortunately, those people get left on the curb even though they a case be made that they deserve just as much as anyone to run-in the race. Mhmm. You know, their passion, their dedication, their commitment, their desire is all there. And then it comes down to instead of having to have to qualify to participate in a race, you have to you have to commit to a fundraising number. And then what some charities end up doing is to to make sure you you you follow through with the commitment. Right. They'll they'll take your credit card. Yeah. You know? And if the commitment is, you know, $3,000 and you fundraise 2,000 and the race is over and the deadline has gone by, then they'll ding your credit card for the balance. Right. Right. So as much as it's philanthropic and it's all good, it's definitely a business too. Agree. Yeah. Yeah. No. I I I I remember that because I did in 2018 Boston to one of the charities too. And I exactly the same process I went through because as I'd as you mentioned, I don't know a lot of people around, and it was, five digit number that I have to raise. So it was big, big amount as well. No. I get it. Yeah. Now if you look at the other side of selecting participants or people who can run for your charity Yeah. Like, what do you look for? Well, again, a lot of it has to do with the ability to fundraise. Yeah. Yeah. You know? But that aside, I I think it's sometimes people might wanna keep it local to the to the race so that we can all get together and truly be a team versus people from all over the country or all over the world. Mhmm. Maybe this priority given to local runners to that event versus someone from way outside of the local area. Mhmm. That could be a factor. Yeah. And, you know, beyond that, I you know, maybe just some sort of sense that this person is serious about the commitment, is willing to do the work, and and and and and definitely has an affinity or a vested interest in the charity too. I mean, obviously, once the race is over and that runner has raised whatever they raised for that charity, the charity still would like to maintain a relationship with that person. And maybe that person continues to fundraise and give to the charity throughout the year, you know, maybe at other events that that charity is hosting that these people attend because they care about the charity, not just Right. The business. But Right. So, I mean, I would personally, I would you know, charitably, my, like, my foundation or whatever, that's I would look more if there's an overwhelming demand to run for my charity and I have to go through this whole selection process, That's certainly one factor that I would weigh high is what is their true interest in the charity, not just the bit number. I see. No. That that that that makes total sense. And and I I think that is also the deterministic for for a success point of view to how successful they would be to fundraise. Yeah. They connect with the charity versus I'm just looking for a beep, and I may connect with the charity. Yeah. In some cases, that's okay too because that's what this is about. It's about raising money for the charity. Yeah. Yeah. Some charities don't care who run for them. They just want the money. That's true. That's that's true. Negative thing. I mean, that's Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's I mean, at at the end of the day, it's fundraising. That's why we're calling it fundraising in twenty six point two. Yeah. But if you can have it all, you know, have someone local, have someone passionate, committed, have someone who really cares about the charity, you know, has someone who will help promote your charity and all that kind of stuff, then you've got an ideal candidate. I see. You know, I was looking at the numbers. Like, in 2023, around 2 billions have raised to charity runners. It's a massive number. And your fall fall math race since February, it raised more than $63,000,000, which is also a staggering number. Yeah. I mean, I was just at our Falmouth wrap up the other night Yeah. And the, charity coordinator announced today what the charity program has raised from this year's Falmouth road race is 7,700,000.0. And, you know, Falmouth is a seven mile road race. It isn't a marathon. It's not one of the world marathon majors. It's not an Ironman. I mean, it's a prestigious road race in America. It's been around for fifty two years. I get all of that. But still, that is an amazing number when you think about that the event. You know? So I mean, I bet you a case can be made, and I don't know. I don't know how one does the research, but that that for a race that's, like, under a half marathon distance, that doesn't have twenty, thirty, 40 thousand people in it. Yeah. Yeah. That's gotta be one of the highest, if not the highest, total that any race in The United States has raised. I have to I have to think. You know? Yeah. I'm not looking. Maybe I should, reset a little bit and see if I can, share that. Let's see who else has raised more than that. And what what other than, again, other than the major Yeah. Less than a half mile distance. Yeah. That would be a good Half mile distance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. That that would be a good number or figure out if there's anyone Yeah. Else. Yeah. Yeah. Let me know if you find out. Sure. We'll do. The one of the reasons for the success is that the charity organizations have themselves has becomes very sophisticated as you look at, like, providing them training or the coach or different kinds of events or, you know, train them or or also having a platform to fund raise them. So it has become very sophisticated nowadays that they do. How was the evolution? Because you have seen it all from where it was nothing to where it is today. How you have seen that evolution happen that charity partners giving not only says, hey. John Doe raised 10,000 for me. Here you go. Go do something work, and let me know when how you do. Versus, I'm there with you to help you, to achieve that goal. Like, how you've seen that evolution over the years? I think, you know, charities are always looking at other charities and trying to steal best practices. Like and and I think I think charitable charities are charitable. In other words, they're willing to share. They're not trying to, like, you know, compete against other charities. I mean, everyone's all the charities are just as worthwhile as the next one. Right? True. There are a lot of important causes in this world that, you know, need money for research or whatever. So I think when a charity who may not be doing a lot behind the scenes sees a charity that is and seeing the results of that effort, then they begin to do it themselves too. So it's infectious, you know, in the sense. So I think they're just saying to themselves, if we just invest a little bit more effort and time in the program Mhmm. You know, the the benefits could be exponential. Right. So if they're raising $50,000 with 50 runners, maybe they can raise $200,000 for 50 runners if you treat them better. That is good. That is more special and incentivize them. Say, hey. If you raise a thousand dollars, you get dinner for two. Yeah. If you raise $2,000, you get dinner for four. And if you raise $3,000, you know, we'll bring you to the restaurant in a limousine and whatever. You know? I mean Just being creative. Yeah. Being creative and or or even say, you know, you raise over $5,000, then you are guaranteed, an entry next year again. I see. I see. And and maybe they wanna continue to run that race consecutively and instead of having to have to apply every year, if they raise a certain amount, that charity may say you're guaranteed the next year. No. That that makes sense, actually. That is valid. Right? That one up. I don't know if anyone's too. Yeah. I'm not seeing, but I know that runners have done for the same charity year over year. So I'm sure they do something to make sure that they retain Come back. They come back. Retention is coming up at a high. Yeah. Yeah. So they have to do something to retain them year over year, for for sure. Now raising over 300,000,000 plus with you, Efra, and your organization's day, I'm just curious to see, like, what do you personally get out of it? Well, I as a participant. Yeah. My mantra or motto has always been when you give, you receive even more in return. Yeah. No. It's just a feeling of you had an you had an impact. Right? Sure. I don't need a lot of attaboys or, letters of banks. I just know walking away, when I see the results of the efforts. I know I was able to help help someone, either live a more normal and healthy life or stay alive or, you know, feel better about themselves, whatever the cause is. Yeah. Yeah. How can you not, you know, benefit from that knowing that you had a significant impact on on other people? That's, I mean, that's a greater reward than anything else anyone could give you. True. So True. And when and you don't want that to end. Like, it it's it's never ending. You never wanna stop. Right. So for me, any opportunity I have to be able to help other people accomplish things or just get through difficult times, whatever it might be, within reason, of course, then I wanna do it. Because selfishly and most people wouldn't think it's selfish, but selfishly, I'm gonna get as much, if not more, out of it when it's all said and done. And you look at it that way, then you both benefit. The person you help in benefits, but you benefit by virtue of how you the feeling you get from helping. Mhmm. And it doesn't get any better than that. No. Well said. Thank you so much. And really I really enjoyed our conversation, and and thank you for sharing over the years. And and you are one of the pioneers who paved the way for charity runners that you call it today. And thank you for sharing the history and how we were how we have become where we are today. So thank you so much, Dave. Thank you. Always great to join you.