[Kamal] Welcome, Krishna, to this podcast. I'm very excited to have you here and actually learn about your running journey. [Krishna] Thanks for having me, Kamal. It's an honor. [Kamal] Great. So let's start with a little bit about your background. So originally from India and currently living in the United States in a place called Peoria which is 3 hours South to Chicago. I am engineered by profession and distance learning is my passion. Oh great. Definitely going to unpack a lot about about that passion for sure. So let's start with your experience running Berlin this year. You just wrapped up Berlin couple of weeks ago. How was your experience going in and overall running the Berlin Marathon this year? [Krishna] Yeah, this is my first Europe visit and I always wanted to run Berlin. Been planning for past five years and finally it happened. So very exciting. The race was well organized. I love the crowd. I got a lot of extra cheering because of my barefoot runs. It was interesting to see the response and the way they were cheering. And the memorable moment was the way they were showing their kids when I was running barefoot. Like look at the barefoot, like no shoes, no shoes. So it was a very interesting experience and I like that after the run, even how it is organized, it was easy to reach the venue and in and out. Yeah, I like. I like the Berlin race in general overall. [Kamal] Oh, that's great. So yes, I'm definitely curious about your barefoot running and experience. How did you get into it? I think let's do this. Let's go back to your, you know, how did it all started? How did you get into long distance running? And then probably you'll unpack how you evolve into barefoot running. [Krishna] Yeah, sure, definitely. So I when it came to United States back in 2002, I was very skinny and here we have a lot of unhealthy choices you made and I put on weight within couple of months. I reached around £200 within a year from 1:50 to 200, which is a big and I was not happy with the way my discipline, my everyday routine. And one day I came across a friend of mine who signed up for Chicago Marathon in 2007. I was like motivated, like, OK, this looks interesting and never ran a mile before. So I I also signed up just for a click of it. And it took I I think I I signed up like 3 months before, so no zero training. And I started slowly. The things I started noticing during the journey, the training journey, is there is lack of discipline and food choices. The lifestyle changes. So I started making those changes one step at a time. I started changing, seeing my life changing completely. I started paying attention to what I eat, when I eat, how I eat, and I started liking the the discipline. So the motivation can take you to only some distance, but the discipline takes you a long way. And so the first marathon I ran in 2007, Chicago, it was terrible. It was 88 degrees that time and they didn't have water and some stations and even though the experience was terrible but the journey took me to the training and all helped me to change, turn my up life upside down. It it helped me to get better. And there is no more discipline, it's more of a lifestyle. So this improved lifestyle helped me to grow professionally because all these skills I learned, they can transform seamlessly into how you plan things and execute them with, you know, with little deviations. Since then I started keep on running. So far I ran 10 marathons and Berlin mile 10th and two ultra marathons so which were a little different but it I during the whole training and practice I came to know the mental strength it is you need to have a different mindset. So always pushing yourself for extra mile, extra distance. Keeps you motivated and also finding the purpose like why? Why are you running right? [Kamal] You mentioned a couple of times about the output that discipline gave you which is permeated across other parts of your life as well. Maybe you can deep up a little bit on the dead side like can you give couple of examples like how does it look like? [Krishna] Yeah, so before started running, we used to go for parties. You drink, you eat whatever you can, and the next day you regret, like, why did you do that? And now with having the discipline, you pay attention to what you eat. And I started eating clean, like clean the sense I completely avoided the processed food, try to eat the fresh vegetables or meat, look, look at the source like how it is come to the table. And based on that you have like a good clarity on a confidence you build on yourself and a satisfaction saying, hey, we have one body to live in and you have to take care of it. Right. And the discipline helps you to regulate how you maintain all these things without sacrificing or putting everything in chaotic order. [Kamal] Great. I mean that's a good way to put it, be conscious or not, you put into your body because it goes a long way and I think you are living it for sure. That's put of it for sure. Now, how did you pick up 10 marathons? I think that was their 1st 2007 and then probably somewhere you started to say, hey, I'm going to run barefoot. Like, how did that transition happen? [Krishna] So six years ago I came across a book called Born to Run by Christopher. Yes, So I was very motivated. I was like, OK, this sounds interesting and I thought maybe I should run or not. And in 2017, I ran a marathon in Hyderabad, India. There I came across a couple of barefoot runners and I was like, how do you guys run this, this, this looks crazy. And they were explaining, hey, you had a train and you, you come across certain roadblocks. But again, you need to be conscious how you run. So after coming back, I started switching to a minimalistic shoe I ran for an year. Because progression is key. You don't throw your shoe or day one and run barefoot. So I ran for a night what new year? And then one day I said OK, let me try it complete barefoot. So initially I was like why am I doing this? But when I remember the importance of why all this what what you need to know why you're doing this. The first thing is the the proper form. Because with with shoe we overlook how you land on your feet. You always land on your heel because there's a cushion and it takes care of it, but the impact has to go somewhere in usually. I used to get a lot of shin splints with shoe. I tried different shoes, different brands but no luck. But with barefoot I stopped getting those shin splints. That was the first first noticeable change. And second thing the feet muscles they started getting stronger and I was having better balance and even though there were little hiccups in the beginning like hitting running on spell or a sharp object but the the healing power is really amazing. And the third thing I noticed the grounding effect because we sitting in desk jobs. You don't connect to the mother earth so when you run barefoot you're you absorb all the free electrons on the earth and it gives a lot of benefits on health wise like less less inflammation and a lot of positive wipes you catch. And I started feeling happy when I run barefoot, even though people say like how do you feel happy? Like try try walking in the garden. On the grass, you know when you connect to the earth, all the positive waves transfer to you. So when I started the seeing these three benefits, I said OK, let me try one more mile, 2 two more miles and I said OK, this looks nice. And since then I started running barefoot and everywhere. So we started running on the sidewalks, which are clean. Later I started running the trail. And now I Berlin is my third barefoot marathon. The first was New York, which was an interesting experience because of the bridges and all the roads in Bronx. And second was Denver, where I got my PR. I ran in 3 / 30 minutes. Oh, great. And and the third one is the Berlin. [Kamal] Oh great. How long was the transition for you? Say? I started to experiment with barefoot running from minimal stick shoes and then getting to run a marathon. Say their first barefoot marathon was New York, you said. Yeah. So, like, how long was the transition? [Krishna] For me, I think the transition took around 2, two to three, three years to be precise. So starting from with shoe and without shoe, a full marathon like three years and how does, I'm just curious, minimalistic shoes you referred to, like did you say significant difference between running with cushion shoe that most of the runners do versus minimalistic minimalistic shoes? Yeah, minimalistic shoe, they have a zero drop and so you feel the pebbles and every every change in the contour on the road. So there is a layer between you and the ground. So it it is different from which shoe? But again, it's not like directly connected to the earth. If there is a contour you experience with your feet, but with minimal structure there is a layer. It helps you from getting any any kind of injuries. [Kamal] I see that's great. And coming back to your barefoot, it's a two to three-year journey that you got to, and then you trained for a marathon and ran a couple of them. I wonder what kind of logistical challenge you face, especially in the training phase. One thing is in a lot of cost savings, you know you don't. You don't spend money on shoes anymore. [Krishna] Yeah, that's true. So and minimal packing. Whenever I go for trips I don't. I just need my running shorts and that's it. I don't need to pack any fancy shoes and all those. So in the logistics wise, there are some known risks like hitting on any pebbles or any rocks like it happened in Berlin on mile 18I stepped on a glass piece and I had slowed me down. I lost like 40 minutes... because of it, but it's a known risk. No regrets, but just I keep an eye when I go for a barefoot trans if the road is clean. And I don't experiment in unknown territories. If I go to a new place, I pick a unknown roads even I go for a drive just to see if. The road is good or if there any surprises because you just plan a little bit and then just go for it. So it takes an effort or you do put an effort to you get to know the road whether it is, you know suitable for barefoot running or you have to avoid those parts of the road smells. [Kamal] Oh, that's good, yes. What about the trail runs cause trail? I would think it'd be interesting to run barefoot, but you said you do trade in trails as well. [Krishna] Yeah, the trail runs are good because you have a mix of dust and pebbles. Than most of the pebbles are softer compared to the road. And I I feel the trail runs are pretty easy and you have sometimes get a nice shared and I like it but not all places you get access to the trails. So right in general the roads are easy to run. If I go to a new place OK, OK now that's that's very interesting that you can pretty much run everywhere. Usually people train and run because runs is A lot of folks mix up with regular road running when they're training for long distance runs. [Kamal] So what are the goals now you're chasing? You ran 3 marathons barefoot. What's next for Krishna? [Krishna] So next is the Tokyo Marathon in March 3rd. Yeah, so I am planning to chase all the six and my biggest chase is the Boston qualifiers. So for my age I need to run within three hours. So I'm still 30 minutes shy away. OK. Well, I'm sure it'll happen, but you're running barefoot too. So that's pretty interesting dynamics there that. Playing out. So another aspect of barefoot running. When I was running with shoe I was at 10 minute per mile pace which is pretty slow. Now with the barefoot runs, I hit 7 minutes per mile, which is like 13% improvement. So even when I run faster with barefoot, I don't see stress on my knees or on my hips or anywhere. Just I get the soreness at the calves, which is which is standard and the soreness lasts. Maybe they are to the recovery is pretty quick with the barefoot runs, the feet under the feet. It gets a little touchy if I go for a 1518 mile run, but. They have to. I'm back to the running again. That was your one of the points of the benefits like the healing power kicks pretty, pretty, pretty fast there, pretty fast. [Kamal] Well, all the best for Boston, I'm sure. Looks like you're in the right path and you're tracking it very closely. Now one of the questions that, you know normally I'd like, I'm very curious about the runners. Like you know you got into running in 2000, ran your first marathon in 2007, you're running 15 plus years now. I'm sure over a period of time you build a support system around you, especially if you're running barefoot. You know there are factors you have to consider and I'm sure the support system helps you out and that that some some of those areas. How does it look for Krishna, the support system? [Krishna] Well I have a great support at home. My wife is a big supporter and my kids, they even my kids, they when we go for a walking they they come barefoot. And my older son, he ran a 5K barefoot and I. Try to spread this information, learn over the years and share the knowledge. Because we are built for distance running and shoes does help, but on the health aspect, barefoot running is the way to go great. [Kamal] And what about the way the races, the the support, the overall running this races is that also helpful or he found helpful over the years? [Krishna] So for the past five years, I've been running as a Saint Jude hero. Oh, you're wearing that? OK, yes, yeah. And there's a big group of runners whenever I like. In Berlin, there were like 40 plus runners from Saint Jude. So we met. We met the day before had.... We had talk about the plan, how we train and it was a good tight knit community and having that kind of support when you are overseas visiting for the runs, it always helps. [Kamal] Oh yeah, absolutely, especially in a group. Now you are training for Tokyo and you are in Illinois, yes, and I'm sure it's going to get cold in upcoming months. Yes. How does the training look like in in training in cold, especially in barefoot? [Krishna] Yeah, that that's the challenge for me. So I had to train indoor, that's which one, which I don't. I'm not a very big fan, but how to do what I have to do? I'll be doing some elliptical and found an indoor trail in one of the gym, so I'll be running on the tracks. OK, for the Tokyo and if the weather is good, I'll try to go for the run at least a short Sprint to get get the feet up and running. Yeah, because I think the part you are in, it snows quite a bit. So it could be challenging to find surface that you can go on for run. [Kamal] Yeah. Mostly the all the spring runs, you'll have similar challenges like Boston or London. Yeah. So at least you have a backup plan now. So it's pretty good, yeah. If someone wants to transition to barefoot running that you're doing for like 5 plus years, 3 marathons, how would you recommend that he or she should approach barefoot running? [Krishna] So I'll say just have an understanding like why are you doing this? Because once you know the wise. How will be? How will become easier the so. You need to have like a progression plan and start slow. So start with the minimal structure for some days and start going for short runs with barefoot, maybe half a mile to start with. Pick pick an area which is safer and go slow. Listen to your body. Because you'll the first thing you'll notice how your stripes are changing. Because your landing changes, your breathing changes because the body adjusts to this new routine. So let it. Let it evolve slowly. Take your time.... Don't have it, don't rush and injuries do happen, but don't consider them as a show stoppers to those maybe a little setbacks here and there. But always listen to your body and just go go with the flow. [Kamal] And are there any learning because it took two to three years to get ready for a parathon barefoot? Are there any learnings that or I call them land miles, land mines that people should be washed out for? Like, hey, learn from my mistake that I didn't do that. You can avoid if you're paying attention to those. [Krishna] Yeah, the landmines I would say just be you need to have mentally prepared to run a barefoot run, especially like in new new arenas like the New York which I was not very familiar even though you drive around. But still, there will be a lot of surprises on the day of marathon, like the when when I ran...